KLF 20s + Crites Titanium Diaphragms + Tube amplication

[BmWr75]

I've used KLF 20s as the mains in my home theater for years. On music they have always sounded a little harsh to me and fatiguing when using Denon AVR 4800 solid state amplication.

So, recently connected them to a tube integrated amp that will run in both ultralinear and triode modes. The triode mode made the KLFs much more relaxed and better sounding for 2 channel music.

Next, new Bob Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms were installed. Now, the KLFs sound better the more powerful ultralinear mode and very similar to the triode mode with the old "plastic" diaphragms (I forget the exact material).

Am happy with the results of both of these changes.

[rebos123]

try bi amping them now, with the Denon amps driving the woofers and the tube amp handling the mids/highs. I did this with my KLF-30's and they really sing!!

[SET12]

Originally Posted by BmWr75

I've used KLF 20s as the mains in my home theater for years. On music they have always sounded a little harsh to me and fatiguing when using Denon AVR 4800 solid state amplication.

So, recently connected them to a tube integrated amp that will run in both ultralinear and triode modes. The triode mode made the KLFs much more relaxed and better sounding for 2 channel music.

Next, new Bob Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms were installed. Now, the KLFs sound better the more powerful ultralinear mode and very similar to the triode mode with the old "plastic" diaphragms (I forget the exact material).

Am happy with the results of both of these changes.

KLF20's and tubes is the ticket!

Now all you need is a pair of these



Your networks are similar to mine.





If you only knew how much of a difference it makes!

The stock network is very, very lean sounding IMO.

I could never go back to the typical stock networks found in most Klipsch Speakers.

Now whats really incredible to me is how authoritative and extended 10 watts can get.

Done correctly (Its all in the supply!) they can be more authoritative watt for watt then any SS AV receiver or SS integrated 2 channel amp that I have heard with my Fortes. And even then, some 200 watt/channel power amps I have come across can sound lean and less dynamic watt for watt as well.

One thing I would be careful with!

Running a tube amp on the mid and top end.

Tube amps of course use output transformers. And their loading on the secondaries is reflected back to the primary.

For instance put an 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm tap and it will reflect twice the primary load meaning a 4300 secondary would now be a 8600 ohms.

Put a 16 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm tap and it becomes a 17,200 ohm load.

This will cause the output tubes to produce more gain.

In an amp that uses feedback this could be devastating causing the amp to become unstable!

Some amps will even go into thermal runaway because of to much feedback produced by the extra gain from the excessive loading.

This all of course is amplifier design dependent.

Hooking it up to the mid,tweeter Bi-wire terminals does not provide a low frequency correct loading meaning the tube amp is darn near going to see an infinite load.

So there is a risk! You also risk damaging the output transformers. Which is why you never,never run a tube amp without a load. though there are some that can because they have safety loading built in.

Running SS amps is a different story! As they typically are stable in infinite loads.

If I wanted to do another project like my Fortes I'd do the KLF20's!

The KLF30's would be substantially more costly.

You can see a price comparison of the KLF20's vs KLF30's here in my thread. by scrolling down near the bottom of the page.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...159340&page=12

Cheers

SET12

[BmWr75]

No worries. I have no bi-amping plans. Not sure I'm ready right now to invest $700+ in crossovers, but will keep this mod in mind if a windfall comes my way.

[cmb3366]

Originally Posted by BmWr75

No worries. I have no bi-amping plans. Not sure I'm ready right now to invest $700+ in crossovers, but will keep this mod in mind if a windfall comes my way.

You don't have to spend $700 to hear the difference crossovers make. The one's Bob puts together are fantastic, they really smooth and refine the sound of KLF's. Crite's modded Klipsch and 18wpc of SET = magic.

[SET12]

Originally Posted by cmb3366

You don't have to spend $700 to hear the difference crossovers make. The one's Bob puts together are fantastic, they really smooth and refine the sound of KLF's. Crite's modded Klipsch and 18wpc of SET = magic.

While Bob's work is no doubt an improvement

And SET's are Cool

These though are clearly in another league IMO.

Originally Posted by BmWr75

No worries. I have no bi-amping plans. Not sure I'm ready right now to invest $700+ in crossovers, but will keep this mod in mind if a windfall comes my way.

That was $700 each! for the KLF20's

The large 3mh North Creek Inductors I use are $500 a pair and yes they are expensive! But Iron Core inductors are unfortunately lean sounding next to Air Core's.

Keep in mind though, it's still cheaper than spending 5-$10,000 for a new pair of speakers that's for sure, while getting the $10,000 performance

It was a real bargain IMO, not to mention a startling discovery process.

Cheers

SET12

[cmb3366]

Originally Posted by SET12

While Bob's work is no doubt an improvement

And SET's are Cool

These though are clearly in another league IMO.





That was $700 each! for the KLF20's

The large 3mh North Creek Inductors I use are $500 a pair and yes they are expensive! But Iron Core inductors are unfortunately lean sounding next to Air Core's.

Keep in mind though, it's still cheaper than spending 5-$10,000 for a new pair of speakers that's for sure, while getting the $10,000 performance

It was a real bargain IMO, not to mention a startling discovery process.

Cheers

SET12

I've never heard modded forte's, and certainly not your crossovers, and you've never heard Crite's modded 10's, so its impossible to say what there is to be gained, or which setup is the way to go.

That said, I will personally be going for a set of La Scala II's before I ever consider getting $1400 deep in a set crossovers for KLF's.

[SET12]

Originally Posted by cmb3366

I've never heard modded forte's, and certainly not your crossovers, and you've never heard Crite's modded 10's, so its impossible to say what there is to be gained, or which setup is the way to go.

That said, I will personally be going for a set of La Scala II's before I ever consider getting $1400 deep in a set crossovers for KLF's.

I don't think I have to listen to Bob's. I know what to expect from Iron Core Inductors as the Forte's used them.

And I have others.

From North Creek Music's FAQ's

What about ferrite core inductors, which have very low DCR?

"The problem with ferrite core inductors - all of them - is hysteresis distortion. Hysteresis is related to the energy loss incurred by the core material during the magnetization polarity shift that occurs in every cycle of the signal flowing though the inductor wire - for a 500 Hz signal, this is 500 times the core polarity has to be reoriented, per second! Hysteresis distortion sounds like compression - and also measures as wave-form compression. Furthermore, when the current though the inductor is large enough, the core will saturate and the value of the inductor dynamically shifts to a much lower value. This is also clearly audible.

The only practical application for ferrite-core inductors in high end audio is as low DCR "trap" coils in tweeter resonance trap circuits, where the circuit is functioning in a very narrow frequency window and the current flow is extremely small."



From DeanG at the Klipsch Forum

"I didn't expect to ever come back to this thread again, but have had a surprising experience. I finished my ALKs a few days ago, and as part of the build I went with some 10AWG Solen air cores which I mounted on separate boards because of their size. The DCR of the 10AWG air cores is .16, the same as the Erse Super Q steel laminates I've been using from Parts Express. FWIW, there's a pretty big difference in the bass. After an hour or so of listening I put some Super Q's into the circuit to see what it would sound like, and though still very good, sounded lean in comparison, and not nearly as full bodied and tight as the air cores. I've had the beasts laying around for a long time, and I'm glad I finally found use for them. I didn't expect to hear a difference, wasn't even listening for it, but it was pretty obvious."

I'll bet LaScala II's have the same issues as the LaScala 1's as I doubt much was done with the networks. My buddy has a pair which has ALK networks with Air Cores. The ALK's are vastly superior networks with Air Cores IMO. I couldn't listen very long to my buddy's LaScala's till he got the ALK's in and the elevated mid-range lowered.

After hearing the Klipsch $20,000 P39F's you'd think they would put to shame a pair of lowly Fortes with mod's!

But that was far from the case!

Good luck on your LaScala II's

As I like to say live and learn!

I did and you have that right to too!

SET12