Where Do You Draw Your Karma Line?

In order to receive good Karma, I am assuming most would agree that you have to occasionally give good Karma. Everybody is always on the lookout for those great scores, whether it's the odd thrift store find, the person selling gear that just wants to see it go to someone who will enjoy it, etc. And it's always a great feeling to make that great score. But where do you draw your personal fairness line? I see an awful lot of posts here where people say some version of, "The person had no idea what they had, they were selling it for $20 (or whatever). I worked them down to almost free, what a score!!". To me, that's not really something to feel that great about. I mean, if you talk to the person about it, they understand what they have and they're cool with selling it cheap, by all means of course go for it.

But, it's interesting, let's say your parents or grandparents (or whoever) were selling gear for incredibly cheap because they didn't know any better. You wouldn't just let them sell it, you'd try to explain what it's worth first. If they still wanted to sell it for cheap, it's their call, of course. I don't want to overstate it, or be too pollyanna about it. Like I said, we all love scores. But I do wonder how far folks are willing to take it, what sort of personal rules you use for yourself. I leave flippers out of this conversation, they are in their own special category.

So, let's talk ethics in this great hobby. Unless you'd just rather talk about the brilliance of Paul Butterfield, which I'm happy to do as well.

I lost my 1st "steal" (it was for camera gear) when I told the seller that the lenses could be used on a digital body...and on my last "scroe" I told that seller the same (for nearly the same lenses!) and she still sold them to me...it all works out...

Agreed and good post it always seems that the almighty buck outweighs karma. Personally I don't do CL, Goodwill or even yard sales and the likes. Also I try to spend my money where it will help others and not worry about saving 5 bucks. Or when the time comes to sell something I just ask for what I paid. Other times I just give it away to someone who might need it or just can't afford it for whatever reason. Maybe they can sell it and gain some profate and it will help them.

There have been times that I have felt guilty about paying very little for something. Most of those times I will ask "are you sure"?

Last year, I was at a yard sale and the old guy had a tube tester for sale. It was still brand new in the box it came in. He said "how about $2 dollars". I knew that tester was worth a lot more than that. I even told him that. I did give him more then he asked. I do believe there are some people that would have offered him a dollar, no, I know there are.. I would feel bad doing that, but that's just me. I hate negotiating anything.

I've had a few of these situations, and I have to say it all depends. I just bought a piece from a guy on ebay who is selling some nice audio pieces from a good friends estate for the family. He has no idea, other than looking at past sales for the same items, of pricing. I actually have spoken to him on the phone, and have offered some help with some of the items (as far as testing and pricing) to which he was very grateful. I was glad to help...the family needed the money.

One of my best scores I've ever had was from a audio enthusiast who didn't really have any interest in vintage gear. He sold me some items for really cheap, and I even told him how desirable they were...he didn't care, and said as long as he made a little bit to support his own audio habits he was happy.

On the flip side there's the thinking that if your going to sell something these days there is a wealth of information available on the web. It is kind of the sellers responsibility to know what they have, and what they'd like to sell it for. If not I'd say they are a pretty lazy seller.

I like my Karma, and try to keep it in the positive. Good deals come and go; the memory of knowing you took advantage of someone stays with you for life.

the memory of knowing you took advantage of someone stays with you for life.

Oh, geeezzzz, now you go and bring up my first wife! I hope it does stay with her for the rest of her life!!

Me? I remarried the right woman the second time, and it's been 20 years+

sometimes I just let stuff go and feel ok about it. once it's out of site I can't control what they do with it!

Tcomisky said:

There have been times that I have felt guilty about paying very little for something. Most of those times I will ask "are you sure"?

Last year, I was at a yard sale and the old guy had a tube tester for sale. It was still brand new in the box it came in. He said "how about $2 dollars". I knew that tester was worth a lot more than that. I even told him that. I did give him more then he asked. I do believe there are some people that would have offered him a dollar, no, I know there are.. I would feel bad doing that, but that's just me. I hate negotiating anything.

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Yesterday I went to the upholstery shop that we are working with all the time. He did a personal job for me on my sisters dining room chairs. He gave me a good price to start with and when I tried to pay he was knocking 30% more off. He said you do us favors and get us out of a bind all the time. I said and we charge you a fair price. I said your price is fair and that's what I'm paying if you feel bad about it by the shop lunch..:thmbsp:

With a person, I try to do on to others as... With corporations, well, catch as catch can.

Not that I expected lots of folks to answer this question by actively admitting that they're OK with ripping people off, but it's really nice to see this many people respond so quickly by saying they try to do the right thing. One of the best things about this site. Mostly genuinely great folks on here.

As for the internet, the increase in available info, etc. I was having a discussion about that over the weekend, folks making the argument that everyone knows what everything is worth. But I do think there are still lots of folks who really have no idea. Not saying it's not a seller's responsibility to do a little legwork. But I think you still know when you have someone who just doesn't know better, and it's nice to see that most won't take advantage of that. Again, I guess I don't expect the "I worked the guy down to $5, he was clueless" crowd to actually admit it on here. You do see a lot of those types of comments on here, though.

I bought a Rega P3 "record player" at a yard sale for $20. That's what they asked, that's what I paid. I paid quickly and got the hell out of there. I bought a Technics sl1700, talked the guy from $65 down to fifty, then ended up giving him $60 cause he was a nice guy to talk to. I've paid more for speakers than lots of people would have. I've taken perfectly good stuff I could have turned into cash to the Sally Anne, just because.

I like to dicker and barter, I'm in sales, people grind me over price all day, every day. I've never bought anything from someone who needed the money for groceries or rent, so if they don't accept my offer what the heck.

I'm not out to screw anyone, and I don't expect to get screwed. In the next couple weeks I'm going to be thinning my heard of audio, and automotive stuff. If I get market value, great, but I really just need to get rid of some stuff, and some people will likely get deals. Karma in the bank if I don't get cash.

mmann68 said:

Not that I expected lots of folks to answer this question by actively admitting that they're OK with ripping people off, but it's really nice to see this many people respond so quickly by saying they try to do the right thing. One of the best things about this site. Mostly genuinely great folks on here.

As for the internet, the increase in available info, etc. I was having a discussion about that over the weekend, folks making the argument that everyone knows what everything is worth. But I do think there are still lots of folks who really have no idea. Not saying it's not a seller's responsibility to do a little legwork. But I think you still know when you have someone who just doesn't know better, and it's nice to see that most won't take advantage of that. Again, I guess I don't expect the "I worked the guy down to $5, he was clueless" crowd to actually admit it on here. You do see a lot of those types of comments on here, though.

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Of course not but maybe just maybe we will see less of the type post you mention. Because you are not the only one that sees this or feels this way. We know who generally post like that every weekend now they might know how others view their actions. I sometimes wonder how old they might be:scratch2: I mean really do you need to show everything you buy? Who cares anyway.

I don't feel too bad about buying speakers to resell, because most of the time people have rotted surrounds and didn't want to disclose and when I open them up just to make sure the right drivers are in it. The seller would all act all surprised and say "it was fine when I used it last" but I don't try to lowball them and still pay for the asking price because my buyer only care about having the right driver.

I love music. I have spent years researching records. I buy records for myself and I buy them to sell so I have money to buy more music for my own enjoyment. I'm retired now and on fixed income. Selling at the flea market helps my budget. So, yeah, I guess I'm a dreaded flipper. I sell high priced records and I sell $1.00 records. If you buy a bunch from me, I give you a break. I've sold to several AK members and given them a discount for being a member here.

Where do I get the records I sell? From yard and estate sales, thrift stores, craigslist, you name it. Am I greedy and sneaky in my dealings? I try not to be. I pay the person what they ask for. Sometimes I'll ask if I buy a bunch can I get a discount, just like customers ask me at the flea market. Tomorrow I'll be going to a store where they are selling 40 records for $10.00. I will pay the $10.00 if I find forty I want. There is no guarantee that the records I buy are going to sell. I have a garage and basement full of unsold records to answer that question. I donate hundreds of records to GW and SA.

As far as people listing their finds, I do that myself here on AK. I don't see it as something immature or dishonest. This is a website of people who enjoy a specialized hobby. It's fun to see what fellow music lovers have found it their travels. I don't see people bragging about how they ripped someone off. I love the hunt and it's fun to share your finds with others who have a similar interest. Look how many threads are on this site just for that purpose.

I don't argue with people's prices if they ask an amount I'm willing to pay. The only time I try and talk them down is if its more than I'm interested in spending or more than reasonable market value. I don't enjoy haggling on either side of the table, so I refrain from it as much as possible. If that means pricing things on the low side just so people don't argue with me about it, so be it.

In all fairness

mmann68 said:

Not that I expected lots of folks to answer this question by actively admitting that they're OK with ripping people off, but it's really nice to see this many people respond so quickly by saying they try to do the right thing. One of the best things about this site. Mostly genuinely great folks on here.

As for the internet, the increase in available info, etc. I was having a discussion about that over the weekend, folks making the argument that everyone knows what everything is worth. But I do think there are still lots of folks who really have no idea. Not saying it's not a seller's responsibility to do a little legwork. But I think you still know when you have someone who just doesn't know better, and it's nice to see that most won't take advantage of that. Again, I guess I don't expect the "I worked the guy down to $5, he was clueless" crowd to actually admit it on here. You do see a lot of those types of comments on here, though.

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I always try to do the right thing in all of my affairs and I sleep well at night.

While taking advantage of an elderly or uneducated person within the arena of negotiation is absolutely NOT COOL!

Paying a sellers low asking price IS NOT ripping anyone off! IMO

I like a good deal every now and then. However, I am not from the "I worked the guy down to $5, he was clueless" crowd.

I don't think most people on AK are either and I've never seen a thread that implies differently.

Bargain hunting is not something to be ashamed of! If a person feels bad about their dealings with a seller then they should make it right.

There's the other side of it... I paid quite a bit for my TDL Studio-4's... some would say maybe too much.

But they were being sold off by a women who lost her husband at the young age of 44. She has two young children and I know the money will go to help them out. Didn't even try to talk her down...

Sometimes it's really all about the music and all the while trying to do right by people! :yes:

Man I'm on a streak... first on the second page of a really cool Karma Thread!

J English said:

With a person, I try to do on to others as... With corporations, well, catch as catch can.

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:thmbsp:

Here's a story for you. I sold a Sansui G-3500 to a nice kid just getting into vinyl. He got it home and only one channel of his (bought elsewhere) table played. He told me the problem was the receiver. I talked him through a few things and was certain the table had a short in it's cable. He brought both over. I switched channels and the problem followed the channel. He insisted this meant the receiver was defective. So I took an hour out of my day to replace his table's cabling. He offered to pay me for fixing it, I told him no. I also oiled the motor because the table had no spin down at all. The arm is loose and sloppy. I would NEVER sell a table in that condition. I ended up sweeping up some flipper's mess.

Oh, I also taught him how to zero out an arm and align a cartridge. The table flipper either couldn't be bothered or didn't know himself.

See, IMHO there is a world of difference between a flipper and a reseller. A couple bucks is nice, but I do it for the love of the gear and the hobby.

mmann68 said:

I leave flippers out of this conversation, they are in their own special category.

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Not sure why you would want to leave flippers out of this conversation, I believe I qualify as a flipper and there has been one flipper all'ready respond in this thread.

Just because some of us flip gear for hopefully a profit does not mean that we are somehow lesser than ethically than the non flippers

In fact some of the ones you mentioned earlier the types that will see a deal then try to beat the fellow down another few bucks just because they can have an ethical compass that is far more askew then some of us flippers IMHO. Like you I have seen people brag about finding a set of JBL-L100's for example in mint condition at a yard sale for $10.00 then brag about how he knocked the seller down to $5.00 not because they had any intention of re selling them but just because it made them feel good that they got over on the other party.

Everyone here has their own standard of right and wrong I attempt to do my deals so I feel good at the end of the day. There has been many many times I have offered someone more than what they wanted for something because I knew that I could sell it quickly for X amount and I wanted that person to know I was being as fair as I could be to them and was not taking advantage of them just because I could.


There are other instances where I will buy something as cheaply as I possibly can those are businesses that should do there own homework and I have no qualms getting something cheaply from them such as pawnshops second hand stores auction houses etc if they are too lazy or incompetent to do the research needed to find out what retail market value is then I have no problem buying that item/s for as low as possible and I also factor in that whoever they bought that item from they paid far less for it than they are selling it for so they are still making a profit.

The best scores that I have gotten believe it or not came from me buying an item/s that I honestly did not know what the value was when I bought it, of course I have many times over paid when I have done this so it all balances out.


I also believe that when you re sell something the same integrity that you showed when you bought that item should carry over into your sale, for example I attempt to disclose any known flaws cosmetic or operationally I also offer a 100% money back warranty if the buyer is not happy for any reason.

I have had people that were flabbergasted that I would do such a thing but honestly I would much rather have someone ask for their money back then feel that they were somehow ripped off. I feel that you can both buy and re sell with integrity and still make money without causing undue harm to anyone especially your own sense of honor.


REGARDS SNOW

mmann68 said:

...I leave flippers out of this conversation, they are in their own special category.

So, let's talk ethics in this great hobby...

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Sorry, the irony of first insulting other members and then wanting to talk about ethics may be lost on you, but it's not lost on me.

This thread is closed.