Torn on sub or no

dogn4u

Active Member
61Sprite's post hit home. My gut keeps telling me that a pair of floorstanding speakers with 10" minimum woofers will just sound better than a bookshelf/sub combination. Deep, clean, tight bass is critically important to me for listening, but of course I want the shimmer, sparkle, and snap of a good high end.

There's more - My studio apartment is relatively small overall, but has a nice big living area of about 18X32 feet square. Best of all, the room is not a square box full of parallel surfaces. It's upstairs, and has asymmetrical sloping eaves and variable ceiling height. I record myself and other musicians playing live in this room, and it's sonically incredible. my current home stereo sounds incredible, and you don't have to squat three feet from the rear corner to get good sound. Room shape is every bit as important as speakers. Thanks to the lack of parallel surfaces, there are no standing wave bass issues or other problems that occur in cube shaped rooms.

My plan was simple - a Jolida amp pushing a pair of Klipsch RF 7 IIs with my Dual TT plugged into the phono preamp of my Sansui receiver and then line out from the Sansui to the amp. . My Fender Blackface Deluxe Reverb is miked up with the fabulous AT 4047b mike. Various SM57s set up for drums and other amps. I know exactly what I want...the only problem is that those gorgeous RF 7 IIs might be just out of reach financially. Anyone want to spot me $900? Okay, okay, you can stop laughing now.

What are your thoughts on 2.1 systems? It makes me nervous that Klipsch speakers can be bought at BestBuy - though not the high end like the RF 7. I want to do this hifi amp/speaker thing ONCE. Am I right in thinking that two big, fat floor speaks will sound better than a 2.1 setup? I have zero interest in surround and all that.
 
Maybe you should go with two big floorstanders, and a sub. That would give you the benefit of some distributed bass.
 
There are and were many 2.1/2.2 setups that will outperform many, and some any large set of stand alone speakers

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I've gone the two speaker setup, and it works well for my situation.
A friend of mine still runs an early 90's era 2.1 (Sapphire II/Sub I) and it also sounds great.
I think it's probably easier to fit a 2.1 into the average room layout.
You may have to sample a few setups and let your ears guide you.
 
Also, nothing wrong with having it all as already stated.



And if that's not enough then you could always try something like this.

 
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Some floor standing speakers lack bass and some have a lot depending on how the crossover is configured regardless the size of the woofer. Some are very critical to room layout and a whole array of room acoustics.

Some floor standing speakers can sound very flat without a lot of power to drive them. That same speaker should respond better in the bass department when overpowered by the amp.

Personally, I have never liked small speaker and always wanted my floor standers to do the whole job. But this is not always the case in all circumstances and a sub can add to overall sound quality in the system and space. In my system I don't have any tone controls and while it can be a benefit of not filtering the signal path, it doesn't mean all recordings sound great in the space I have or the speakers I have in use.

I had bought some IMF Refance Mk IV and while very detailed, they lacked bass and warmth from what I'm used to. By chance a Velodyne FSR-18 sub was for sale local to me so I got it and tried it out. This sub is very fast and the dynamics it brought to the IMFs and my other speakers in my space is just awesome. I'm not adding a huge amount of bass as this thing can really break the windows if you wanted to. This sub is now in my system permanently set very low and if the media needs a little more bass I turn its volume up a bit to taste.

Just because you may have speakers with large woofers doen't meen they will always do the whole job. You have to remember it's a system, Media, Amps, Speakers, Room and what you want to hear on that given day.
 
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I've been messing with a lot of speakers over the course of the last five years...most all of them being what would be considered "big" and some of those were TOL back in the day. Some of them are flat down to 20Hz, but at least 80% have usable response down below 30Hz. I've messed with stand mount speakers as well, with some of those having the reputation for creating incredible bass for small speakers. There is one rule that applies to all of them and if you understand the concept of standing waves and parallel boundary surfaces then a quip like "I don't need no stinkin' subs" should come across as ridiculous, poorly informed or tongue in cheek. The room has such a profound influence over the reproduction of recorded material that if it's not front of mind and held in constant consideration when selecting speakers you can be guaranteed compromised performance...and many don't even realize how compromised the performance of their speakers actually is, especially in the lowest frequencies (the notion that big LF drivers is a cure all being one of the most common misconceptions) .

My experience is that when it comes to getting a balanced, effortless and low distortion (or distortion free) reproduction of the first two octaves multiple subs is a must...and this applies to all speakers, not just stand mounts. Virtually no pair of speakers on their own merits will be able to totally overcome the effects of modal activity in the room with the end result being unbalanced reproduction of the lowest frequencies. Subwoofers located in different areas of the room than the main speakers load the room with LF content from areas of the room that have a different LF response than the main speakers and this helps to smooth out the unbalanced reproduction of LF coming from the mains. The concept, generally referred to as "distributed bass", has been researched a great deal by well respected entities within the audio community and many of us here on AK have implemented it with great success and now swear by it.

Whether your listening arrangement is near field or otherwise, the proper delivery and reproduction of LF will have a significant impact on the overall performance of your system and should be one of the first obstacles you get out of the way. Next comes matching speaker size to room size. The fundamentals are pretty easy...small speakers are appropriate for a small room or near field listening and as the volume of the listening space is increased so too should the radiating surface area of the transducers. So yes, you can get good results from small main speakers with a few subs in a big room if you don't sit too far away from the mains. I would say that's a more desirable arrangement than big speakers in a small room with no subs. As the room volume increases and/or the distance between listening spot and main speaker location is increased so too should the radiating surface area of the transducers so sufficient sonic energy is delivered to fill the interior volume of the room. A mismatch of driver radiating surface area to room volume can result in strain and distortion at one extreme and bloat and lack of coherence at the other. The drivers that are tasked with the reproduction of LF, which includes low to upper bass, are affected by room volume more than mid band and high frequency drivers. If the room is large and listening not done in the near field the LF drivers should be large or in multiples if relatively small in diameter (say 8" or less).

This conversation can go much deeper but really it all comes down to assessing your room and listening spot location in relation to the main speakers. For your situation I'd be leaning toward mains with LF drivers at least 10" in diameter or multiples if smaller and multiple subwoofers. If you intend to sit within 8' of the mains you can probably go to stand mounts that use large-ish LF drivers (say 8" or larger) and, of course, multiple subwoofers.
 
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There are and were many 2.1/2.2 setups that will outperform many, and some any large set of stand alone speakers

600x450px-b0f75241_1294489287.jpg


653228-super_rare_genesis_im_5200_speakers_cw_servo_10_sub_and_amp.jpg

I agree, but I don't have room for a setup like that. I have a tv in the middle, a rack for my tv, with my equipment as well. So I agree that I'd rather have 2 big floorstanders. Easier to place (Most of the time)
 
61Sprite's post hit home. My gut keeps telling me that a pair of floorstanding speakers with 10" minimum woofers will just sound better than a bookshelf/sub combination. Deep, clean, tight bass is critically important to me for listening, but of course I want the shimmer, sparkle, and snap of a good high end.

There's more - My studio apartment is relatively small overall, but has a nice big living area of about 18X32 feet square. Best of all, the room is not a square box full of parallel surfaces. It's upstairs, and has asymmetrical sloping eaves and variable ceiling height. I record myself and other musicians playing live in this room, and it's sonically incredible. my current home stereo sounds incredible, and you don't have to squat three feet from the rear corner to get good sound. Room shape is every bit as important as speakers. Thanks to the lack of parallel surfaces, there are no standing wave bass issues or other problems that occur in cube shaped rooms.

My plan was simple - a Jolida amp pushing a pair of Klipsch RF 7 IIs with my Dual TT plugged into the phono preamp of my Sansui receiver and then line out from the Sansui to the amp. . My Fender Blackface Deluxe Reverb is miked up with the fabulous AT 4047b mike. Various SM57s set up for drums and other amps. I know exactly what I want...the only problem is that those gorgeous RF 7 IIs might be just out of reach financially. Anyone want to spot me $900? Okay, okay, you can stop laughing now.

What are your thoughts on 2.1 systems? It makes me nervous that Klipsch speakers can be bought at BestBuy - though not the high end like the RF 7. I want to do this hifi amp/speaker thing ONCE. Am I right in thinking that two big, fat floor speaks will sound better than a 2.1 setup? I have zero interest in surround and all that.

How about a pair of Transmissionline speakers? I have the DCM CX-27, which are "transmissionline" sort of speakers, the bass is nice even on low volumes. The soundstage is amazing! They are really, really good speakers. Go down to about 35Hertz...
 
I agree, but I don't have room for a setup like that. I have a tv in the middle, a rack for my tv, with my equipment as well. So I agree that I'd rather have 2 big floorstanders. Easier to place (Most of the time)

Typically the sub isn't placed in the middle, I just used these pics as references as it was easier to see all the pieces in the 2.1 setup. Contrary to your statement it's usually easier to set up small speakers for great imaging, and place the sub where it's bass output will be the flattest than just two large floorstanders, hence their appeal (it's not all about their small size having more WAF).

If you look at the first pic you copied the speakers aren't even connected, this was most likely taken for a sale ad, or just to show off the new speaks.

It just so happens I've owned a set of those and the sub for 24yrs, I will NEVER sell them they are that great. They currently reside in my master bedroom setup, the sub in the front left corner aimed across the front wall, with this setup it's impossible to tell the sub even exists until you shut it off, the integration is that seamless.
 
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After going the monitor route after yrs of full range monsters I'm digging the 2.1 & 2.2 systems I have. Someday I may go back to full range but not anytime soon.
 
You don't show where you live in your avitar line. But I think it is best to listen to the type of system you are thinking of. See if there are other AKers in your area or audio clubs or audio stores. Your ears will tell you what you like best. Good luck.
 
Both sub/satellite and large stand mount or medium size towers can do a fine job when done correctly. And ironically for many of the same reasons.

The biggest limitation of a smaller bookshelf is of course it's ability to produce reasonably low bass at higher volumes. Many (not all) manufactures in an effort to address this issue design the smaller bookshelves to produce pretty deep bass, But it can become distorted. Worse than just distorting just the bass, the way speakers work it will distort every frequency it produces much of the time.

Just adding a sub to the system does not clean up the overall response of the smaller bookshelf's. It just adds more bass, which will likely still improve the overall sound. However, If we include bass management (like with an AVR) with the sub, which alleviates the smaller speaker from the task of producing bass under 80 hz it can change the sound of the speaker completely. It will play cleaner and louder at every frequency and with less power.

If we take the same drivers in the smaller bookshelf's like many manufactures do, Put them in a larger cabinet and add a woofer with a cross over that diverts the low bass from what was the woofer in the smaller bookshelf we get similar results. A speaker that plays louder and cleaner at any volume with much better bass, even though it uses two of the same drivers as the smaller bookshelf.
 
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Typically the sub isn't placed in the middle, I just used these pics as references as it was easier to see all the pieces in the 2.1 setup. Contrary to your statement it's usually easier to set up small speakers for great imaging, and place the sub where it's bass output will be the flattest than just two large floorstanders, hence their appeal (it's not all about their small size having more WAF).

If you look at the first pic you copied the speakers aren't even connected, this was most likely taken for a sale ad, or just to show off the new speaks.

It just so happens I've owned a set of those and the sub for 24yrs, I will NEVER sell them they are that great. They currently reside in my master bedroom setup, the sub in the front left corner aimed across the front wall, with this setup it's impossible to tell the sub even exists until you shut it off, the integration is that seamless.

I understand, I've tried introducing a sub but, I don't have the room, my bed is on one side of the wall, and on the other side is the subwoofer but it doesn't add anything except more bass. I recently bought a set of ScanSpeak Event's. Real transmissionlines and the bass is excellent on my listening position.

I do have to add that the subwoofer I used is a 10". If I were to buy an 8" I think I had more placement options.
 
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