Holy VTA Batman!

I mean VTA! Can't edit title.. Grr.

I just have to share this. I have been fighting for years to try and get my vinyl to sound right, even getting to the point of thinking I just prefer digital...

The issue, one way or another was sibilance. Some records were OK, some sucked.

I'll try to avoid the wall of text I sometimes type, and say this. I recently saw a note somewhere about trying a spacer under the mat, or even removing the mat, to try different VTAs. My turntable has no easy way to change it otherwise.

Someone even told me on one of my threads to try adjusting it, but I had no idea how at that time.

Boy, was he right!

The moral of my story is, you can mess around for years, but if you don't get the VTA right, it's useless. I put a spacer under my mat, (an old LP...), an it transformed my system in a way that still knocks me over a week later.

Got sibilance? Try double stacking the record, just to test it. Only takes a min, and could change your life!

I am now running mid spec on the vtf, and no sibilance, no inner groove distortion, nothing. First time I have EVER heard vinyl sound so good. I'm a believer again!!!

Just wish the morons mastering CDs these days could forget the loudness war. Then even they might sound OK.

Beck, morning phase, it's an incredible album. Heavily addicted. But listen to the HD tracks one, and it's squashed beyond all belief .I just don't understand!! My vinyl rip is now better then the vinyl rip download you get with the record even! If anyone wants a sample, I'd thrilled to provide.

Yippee for vinyl!

I edited the title for ewe. At first glance, I thought it said "Holy WTF Batman!". What, indeed? :scratch2:

Always double check your speling before you post. :yes:

What you've done there is to level or tail down the cart. That will lessen the top end /sibilance in your case.
Tail down adds a little bottom end.

A spacer under the back only of the cart *could* do the same thing.

Thank you Blueshadow and Celt! Lesson learned jbrainey.

And thank you E.Man for commenting on something other then my spelling error!

On this table, there were shims that would go between the cart and the head'shell' to bring the end of the arm up further from the record, and correct the level of the whole scene. Of course, I don't have them now, but I suspect I will need about 1-1.5mm. I was thinking of using some tiny washers as spacers between the cart and mount points. Would metal cause a problem? I guess not, since most mounting is probably done with metal screws. Mine are plastic.

I just can't get over the difference it made. All my records sound beautiful. All of the vinyl love makes so much more sense now. And that M97x cart DOES do a great job!

I've done so many things. Replaced my leads to the preamp, tweaked this, and that... and NOW I am getting the benefit of all those things in one wallop. Pretty cool.

I have to say that, the stress of hearing bad sound from my turntable had me going to digital files out of frustration on several occasions, so I really suspected something was wrong all along. I mean, I'm fussy, but not THAT obsessed. If vinyl was inherently bad, people wouldn't be flocking to it like they are! It just feels so good to have finally found the answer!

Just for reference, here is some information I figured out..

The additional record under the mat, sitting on a lip around the edge, (adding a bit), brought the surface of the record up 2.3mm. I have since modified the table to avoid using the extra record, but to get the same height.

I calculated out the angle difference, and the 'rake angle' of the stylus would be changed 0.8 degrees.

That sure doesn't sound like much, but it sure transformed it!

If I was to try to describe the sound difference, before I changed it, it was like there was a very subtle blanket of distortion covering everything, and 'S' sounds and louder cymbals had bad distorted sibilance. Some records were worse then others, further confusing the whole issue.

Previous thread where I was chasing the problem...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=612935&highlight=phuzzyday

Thanks for the input everyone.

Most screws are indeed metal but they are non magnetic. Magnetic ones can interfere with your moving *magnet* cartridge. Screws are available online (ebay etc) if you need some.

Glad to hear how things have come good.

When you change your VTA and not change (or should I say "adjust") your alignment, you are now out of alignment........It sounds different, but..........

WaynerN said:

When you change your VTA and not change (or should I say "adjust") your alignment, you are now out of alignment........It sounds different, but..........

Click to expand...

What alignments are affected by a VTA change?

Dennis Gardner said:

What alignments are affected by a VTA change?

Click to expand...

VTA is part of the alignment.

jasonsong86 said:

VTA is part of the alignment.

Click to expand...

I understand that, I was simply wondering how much of a change a height adjustment of 1-2mm would make on other aspects of the alignment process.

I would think that change would be quite minimal. (It may depend on tonearm length, but on most, adding a mm or two will probably fall well within the eye's margin of error when aligning a cantilever to a protractor.) It wouldn't hurt to throw down the protractor again, but you may not even notice a change. Mostly, you'd probably want to double check that your VTF is right, and zero it to the record's surface.

I own a modded SL1200MKII with an AT150MLX and regularly adjust VTA from record to record. I have no issues whatsoever, no sibilance, no IGD, etc. Nothing is out of alignment when doing this. Everything sounds great unless imperfections in the vinyl get in the way.

You'd figure that there'd have to be a little room to move... After all, look at the difference in thickness between dynaflex and 200g audiophile pressings. Though there will be minute changes, it's not like playing one or the other will drastically affect your overhang. Ideally, you'll want your setup to be the best compromise between the thickness extremes, so you can get the best all around performance for whatever you play. Plus, vinyl is rarely perfectly flat. Some records have minor warps, or might be dished. I use a record of medium thickness to set what I would consider to be the best all-around VTA, since my TT is not easy to adjust "on the fly."

Before I owned a turntable with adequate adjustments I used a a collection of record mats of varying thicknesses to tweak VTA. I have 2.5 dozen mats ranging from near-paper thin (an Omega One Carbon) to about 4 - 4.5 mm. I don't have much use for them these days but, like most of the other stuff in my parts reserve, I have a hard time parting with them except to offer a replacement mat to a friend in need.

When I shuffle off this mortal coil my sons are going to wonder what all that stuff is. I think I need to leave instructions that my hoard of TT parts is to go to good homes AND NOT hauled off to a GW store.

dont get hung up with vta adjustment though,ive just spent 3 days on and off going up and down from level setting,only to arrive back to a level tonearm again! it fried my brain!!! lol

Got sibilance? Try double stacking the record, just to test it. Only takes a min, and could change your life!

Click to expand...

My cartridge is also very sensitive to VTA and overall alignment but I found something else that was causing a distortion and sibilance toward the inner grooves.
Of course, anyone would suggest alignment, but it was dead on. Test records were fine, I tried everything and even considered the possibility that my cartridge and tonearm just don't play well together.
I was looking at new tables and cartridges and I came across a post that made me consider one more thing: the platter itself was ringing.
The mat on my TT has an indentation in the center about the size of a record label. The indentation is just deep enough to allow the thicker label area of the disc to sink in just enough to afford better contact between the mat and the record grooves for more traction. Unfortunately, the platter would get excited at it's resonant frequency and transmit right through the mat into the vinyl.
My turntable came with a filler disc for that mat indentation, something I never used or gave a second thought about. I left it out years ago because I read somewhere that more traction was better. I put it back in, the grooves on the underside no longer touched the mat as the record was only supported by the label area and the outer ridge. No more resonance transmitting through the mat to the grooves. No more distortion, no more sibilance.
In my case, double stacking the record would have decoupled the grooves from the mat as well.

heyraz said:

My cartridge is also very sensitive to VTA and overall alignment but I found something else that was causing a distortion and sibilance toward the inner grooves.
Of course, anyone would suggest alignment, but it was dead on. Test records were fine, I tried everything and even considered the possibility that my cartridge and tonearm just don't play well together.

Click to expand...

Hey just out of curiousity, did you try to play that same record on another turntable setup? what kind of Turntable& Cartridge are you using? What alignment style are you using?
If you're alignment is right and your cartridge is the right one for your turntable then its probably the nature of the pressing / mastering process.

But if your using a really low compliance (very stiff stylus assembly) cartridge on a low mass Arm, then you'll have issues where distortion, sibilance and dull frequencies become very evident. this is providing you are using the recommended tracking force and have the alignment setup accordingly.

Grado Statement Sonata1 on a Harman Kardon T65C table with the ITO arm. I always use the Harman Kardon Puck on the center spindle.
I used the original HK setup jig and verified it against HiFi News Analogue Test Record and it's included jig. The cartridge tracks beautifully and the test record tones are fine.
I verified the overhang, VTA, Azimuth to death. I tried different VTA's, each time re-verifying the other parameters. I also varied the tracking force, anti-skate and lateral balance and still had the distortion.
It got to the point that I thought there was only one thing left-cantelever resonance.
Lifting the label out of the indentation was the only thing that solved the problem.