Yamaha A-S2000 capacitance and amplifier class

ranjithc

New Member
Hi
Does anyone have an idea on 2 technical specs of the A-S2000 amp please.

1- What is the total capacitance in the amp? Somewhere I read it was 88000mf.
If so, will it be closely comparable with another (monoblock) amp that's stating 90000uf??

2- is the Yamaha A-S2000 a class A amp that switches to A/B mode after a certain power demand threshold?

Please can someone share details on this??

I really need to make a decision between two amps and really not finding any detailed information.

Cheers
RC
 
What is the other amp you are looking at? I don't know for sure but from what I read it is not class A that switches to AB. It is rated very highly for sonics and build quality and competes with other much more expensive high end gear. I would love to hear one!
 
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I hope that some online audiophile text hasn't convinced someone to make purchase choices based on amplifier class of operation or the size of the power supply. Both are immaterial and only serve a means to an end. Class A was en vogue back when semiconductors were highly non-linear and mosfets required high biasing to bring them into their linear range, but we are far past that today. It's still popular with tubes because they are so far from consistent linear operation that they need it to reduce crossover distortion. Even so, solid state class AB after the mid 1980's produced so little of this distortion that dropping dual complimentary outputs (class AB, for instance) in favor of "single ended class A" actually means more distortion- class A amps have some of the worst measured performance and highest harmonic distortion. Totally the opposite of what's printed in audio rags. Push-pull biased into class A is the only exception, and provides the low distortion of AB. Crossover distortion is harmonic distortion that contains a constant factor, ie, it doesn't increase in amplitude with an increase in output power. It's NOT a problem anymore, especially for large fiscal companies like Yamaha. They wrote the book while working along side semiconductor manufacturer Toshiba.

As for the power supply... the size the transformer, the type, and the ripple filter capacitance does not affect sound quality once the size is adequate for the demand. Most push-pull and class AB amplifiers have high psrr, and self-mute any hum, even high power swings. That means even if there was noise on the rails none of it comes out of the amp at the speaker terminals. Larger capacitors do not increase bass response or transients. Those are addressed in feedback and pass-through design. A larger supply means less hum in low psrr designs, more power possibilities, but those are already addressed in the wattage, THD+N and SN Ratio specifications. Signal to noise ratio is about 95 or 98dB if I recall, and that is evidence of good psrr. 90W/chan into 8 ohms only requires 6,000uF pos/6,000uF neg rail filtering for full output. Regulated supplies can reduce this need for capacitance even further. Yamaha does not fudge their specs, they are right in the service manuals for verification on the bench.

Choose the one that has the frequency response, looks, features, power and price that you like best.
 
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Hi
Does anyone have an idea on 2 technical specs of the A-S2000 amp please.

1- What is the total capacitance in the amp? Somewhere I read it was 88000mf.
If so, will it be closely comparable with another (monoblock) amp that's stating 90000uf??

2- is the Yamaha A-S2000 a class A amp that switches to A/B mode after a certain power demand threshold?

Please can someone share details on this??

I really need to make a decision between two amps and really not finding any detailed information.

Cheers
RC

What are you going to be using the amp for? And at what volume levels?
 
Push-pull biased into class A is the only exception, and provides the low distortion of AB. Crossover distortion is harmonic distortion that contains a constant factor, ie, it doesn't increase in amplitude with an increase in output power.

I see Pass Amps referring to this with their designs, and giving the specs for it.

Is this common or uncommon to bias into Class A for est the first 20-30 watts, and ABs do it better? Interesting to me.

If I recall correctly, the HW Engineers typically use 2x the requirement as the margin of error in designs, if this is true in Audio the power supply is 2x the requirement of the design.

As to larger filter caps, do low freqs require more power? Looking at the output on subs it would seem so.
 
Seriously Nikko, there's some glaring errors in an otherwise well meaning post.

Solid state class A amplifiers, from the respected manufacturers, on the whole, have way less inherent distortion than AB amplifiers. (notwithstanding silly audiophool ones- I don't count them)

Crossover distortion is NOT harmonic distortion, it never was and never will be.

Regulated front ends and separate power supplies for the driver stage is where PSU ripple is tamed. Most decent amplifiers for the last 30 years have been running independent supplies for the driver/voltage stage.
Large value capacitors in the PSU make a phenomenal difference to the transient, continuous and low impedance capabilities of amplifiers.

There is no specified capacitance value for a 90w/ch amplifier, there are rules of thumb that err on the side of being cheap and inadequate. 6000uF per rail on a 90w/ch amplifier in inadequate and ripple would be a problem at high power- no doubt about it.

A S/N of 95dBA is pretty crap for an integrated amplifier. Consider it is always referenced these days to full power and a short input. I would expect 110dB from a 100w/ch integrated as a place to start.
 
I see Pass Amps referring to this with their designs, and giving the specs for it.

Is this common or uncommon to bias into Class A for est the first 20-30 watts, and ABs do it better? Interesting to me.

If I recall correctly, the HW Engineers typically use 2x the requirement as the margin of error in designs, if this is true in Audio the power supply is 2x the requirement of the design.

As to larger filter caps, do low freqs require more power? Looking at the output on subs it would seem so.
I've never taken a statistic, but I would say that it is more uncommon than common. Most AB power amps are half a Watt to a couple Watts in Class A.
 
Seriously Nikko, there's some glaring errors in an otherwise well meaning post.
Hardly, see below.

[quote="restorer-john]Solid state class A amplifiers, from the respected manufacturers, on the whole, have way less inherent distortion than AB amplifiers. (notwithstanding silly audiophool ones- I don't count them)[/quote]Open ended statement. Which class A amplifiers, and what demographic do they make? Particularly, how many are capable of under 0.005%? In practice, Class A amplifiers have been the most distorted and noisy amps I've seen on the bench or have been tested by many elsewhere. Look at the Bedinis, for instance. Class A's superiority is marketing once AB amplifiers' devices are biased into their linear region. The entire audiophile debacle of class A having intrinsically lower distortion has been based on the misapprehension that all AB amplifiers should produce gross crossover distortion, which is quite false.

The lowest distortion amplifiers from 0.001 Watts upwards, that I've tested, and others, have exclusively been of the push-pull or AB variety, never single ended. I've yet to see a single ended amplifier with .005% THD, for example. Look at opamps, which are push pull with diminished distortion levels from .0005% even down to uV signal levels or full swing. Consider Yamaha's MX-2000 and MX-10000 HCA complimentary pair amps. The MX-2000's distortion was .00015% at 10W, .005% at rated power. For the MX-10000, distortion was .0003% at half power, somewhere around 0.003% at rated power. That distortion reduces as power is lowered, indicates the absence of crossover distortion. All wideband THD20-20k measurements, not just 1kHz. No single ended class A amp has ever achieved that. The only production amps to come close to those specs were Halcros, push pull.

[quote="restorer-john]Crossover distortion is NOT harmonic distortion, it never was and never will be.[/quote]That is incorrect. Always has been classified as odd harmonic distortion with amplitude distortion characteristics. It's in the educational text books and even Yamaha's manuals. All confirm that it is harmonic distortion that does not change in magnitude:

Yamaha P-2100 Manual, Page 13:
"Another form of harmonic distortion that occurs in some power amplifiers is called crossover distortion. Crossover distortion is caused by improper bias in the output transistors of an amplifier. The amount of crossover distortion stays the same whether the signal is large or small, so the percentage of the distortion goes down as the signal level goes up."

Keith Howard, Royal Academy of Engineering, AES UK:
"Other types of harmonic distortion, such as Class B amplifier crossover distortion, are undoubtedly dysphonic: even tiny amounts of crossover distortion are audible, and very unpleasant." http://www.aes-uk.org/forthcoming-m...the-missing-factor-in-distortion-measurement/

Daniel M. Thompson, Understanding Audio: Getting the Most Out of Your Project or Professional Recording Studio:
"This will happen regardless of the input level, and tends to be worse at lower rather than higher levels. The easy way to differentiate between crossover and harmonic distortion is that harmonic distortion can be eliminated by reducing the input signal level; crossover distortion cannot."

Lindos Electronics, Distortion Measurement Article:
"crossover distortion’ [is] caused by a kink in the transfer characteristic as the sine-wave crosses zero. This is a form of ‘high order’ distortion, and produces odd harmonics (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th etc) which extend right up the frequency range, with little reduction in amplitude"

Below: "This second image (corresponding to the FFT of the -45V bias point signal) shows a smaller fundamental, which indicates a lower output level of 12.5V as a result of increasing the negative bias voltage (the bias voltage affects the overall gain). However, the 3kHz distortion product is now 2V instead of 0.75V, which is only down -16dB relative to the 12.5V fundamental, and the 5kHz distortion product is now around 0.3V, corresponding to a 5th harmonic distortion level of -32dB. This indicates that crossover distortion produces mainly third harmonic distortion, which increases rapidly as the negative bias voltage is increased, or as the bias current is decreased."

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[quote="restorer-john]Regulated front ends and separate power supplies for the driver stage is where PSU ripple is tamed. Most decent amplifiers for the last 30 years have been running independent supplies for the driver/voltage stage.[/quote]No one has stated otherwise.

[quote="restorer-john]Large value capacitors in the PSU make a phenomenal difference to the transient, continuous and low impedance capabilities of amplifiers.[/quote]That is a misconception. It does dictate the peak current available, but nobody produces 1 or 2 ohm speakers anymore for home hifi. Those that were around, such as the Wilson Audio Tiny Watt with its .5 ohm impedance at 200Hz, and the infinity Kappa 9s with their resonant bass enhancement would be considered quite flawed today. The impedance in the Mini Watts was in fact an error by the designer, according to Richard Schram.

The rest regarding transient response is patently false information. It can be disproved through measuring the transient response of the amplifier. A larger power supply reserve, measured in joules, does not increase the bandwidth or slew rate of the amplifier - they are dependent upon the design of the VAS stage and I stage while current slewing into low impedance is affected by the supply impedance path, not the capacitance. The amplifier will never produce a transient faster/higher than the recording, and treble is lower in voltage magnitude than midrange by several orders. Adding to that, a slew rate over 20V/uS in a 100W amplifier is double what's needed, as cleared up years ago by Walt Jung and Bob Cordell. Let's investigate it for a moment: 360 Degrees of a 20kHz waveform is equal to 50uS; each 1/4 of that wavelength is the peak rate of change. This is 12.5uS length. Recorded audio on CD contains no information above 22kHz. On high resolution digital sources, the medium is capable of greater extension but it is not used for audio. The bandwidth is allocated to moving the post filtering upwards in frequency so that a flat response with better square-wave response is achievable at audio frequencies, ie below 20kHz. For the pre stage, a full swing at audio frequencies is only 1V/uS. Vinyl can carry higher frequencies, but the level of those frequencies and its upper rate of change is low - 0.55uS at 20V RMS from the output of a 100W amplifier below clipping (28.3V = clip). According to Douglas Self's publications and others, 20V would only require 5V/us to accurately reproduce all frequencies beyond the audio range without slew limiting distortion. This is also collaborated by Walt Jung. A safety margin of 10V/uS is preferable for driving capacitive loads. All credible doctrines cite similar numbers. I'll add that doubling the amplifiers power does not constitute the requirement for twice the slew rate, as the relationship is not linear.

Douglas Self, Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook, Page 256, direct references to the results of Peter Baxandall and Nelson Pass.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=TL...a=X&ei=_Bm9VK6jGISZgwSd8YGgBg&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA

[quote="restorer-john]There is no specified capacitance value for a 90w/ch amplifier, there are rules of thumb that err on the side of being cheap and inadequate. 6000uF per rail on a 90w/ch amplifier in inadequate and ripple would be a problem at high power- no doubt about it.[/quote]Quite incorrect. There is a calculation we use to determine the required capacitance, along with CAD modeling. I have in my possession two amplifiers, one 90W/ch with only two 6800uF supply capacitors. There is absolutely no hum and no ripple on the output even driving it to square clipping across a dummy load. Spectrum analysis provides evidence. There is another member on this board that can verify that. Bryston, Carver and Phase Linear amplifiers also used small power supplies. Phase Linear 200 was 200W/channel, and I believe the supply capacitors were 2x 10,000uF, one on each polarity rail.

[quote="restorer-john]A S/N of 95dBA is pretty crap for an integrated amplifier. Consider it is always referenced these days to full power and a short input. I would expect 110dB from a 100w/ch integrated as a place to start.[/quote] That is the standard for noise measurement. I would be inclined to agree if this statement were inclusive or directed toward preamps, but it omits an important fact. The extant claim is somewhat contrived, because the integrated amp also includes a preamp stage coupled to its power amp. For power amps, the McIntosh MC-501 is 97dB, and the Pass Labs' X350.5 is 87dB, for instance. McIntosh's C-220 pre is quite poor at 90dB. Then, of course there are other preamp with much better SNR. The noise of the preamp is static since the volume control is virtually always located prior to the first gain stage, thus not attenuating the idle noise. This noise can be considered critical and mathematically described by Friis's formula, since the noise is amplified by the power amp...which is usually about 26-34dB additional gain for home audio amps. This is unfortunately how home audio systems are gain structured. A final signal to noise ratio of 95dB at the speaker terminals is quite excellent. Most home audio systems can't manage that due to the fact 3 lines previous.
 
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Nikko,

Educational, you post seems to argue for no pre amp and connecting the CD player directly to the amp, especially if the amp is equipped with an attenuator or gain pots??

The yamaha's always sound sweet this way on the bench.
 
The key feature of passive attenuators is the absence of additional active stages, and this promotes lower noise, reduced distortion, and unhindered bandwidth. The noise floor becomes that of the power amplifier at normal attenuated listening levels. If the power amplifier has a low enough noise floor, the thermal noise and current through the voltage divider's resistance will dominate and follow the magnitude of the waveforms. Even so, there are three problems that sometimes arise with passive attenuation.

The first is parallel capacitance: The 1-3m interconnect from the CD player/source to the attenuator will be 100-350pF, the potentiometer inside the attenuator will be 50-200pF, the interconnect to the amplifier will be 100-350pF, and finally the input stage of the amplifier will be 100-2000pF. These are not arbitrary values, but real-world capacitance values of real products. Virtually all power amplifiers will also have a low-pass filter to aid in RF stability, and it consists of a series resistor followed by a parallel resistor and capacitor network, and it's factored into that value. The lowest capacitance in this scenario is about 350pF parallel load seen by the driving source's final stage. Most sources (and even preamps) use opamps as the final stage, and if we reference the data sheets, many display 15% overshoot at 200pF. It can also induce slewing, and these are both related.

In addition to overshoot, the second problem is series resistance between the source and amp: It will chance for different attenuation levels, causing more high frequency roll off at lower listening levels. It is best to use lower resistance potentiometers to minimize this effect. The third problem is that most input stages want to see a source resistance near 0 ohms: This is particularly problematic for tube amplifiers, and tube preamps, as any resistance on the input will encourage leakage current to cause a DC offset and raise the chance of it stealing bias. The principle behind this is the same used in DAC's I-to-V stage, expressed by Ohm's Law I*2xR=V.

Crikey! There is no question why some power amps are described as sounding different in people's setups - If the amp measures good on the bench but sounds poor on the rack with weak bass, slurred or harsh gritty highs, or just makes you want to turn it off, look to the input capacitance along the next-in-line component's output stage.

Although most amplifiers do not require gain for full power output, preamps can give that boost that some low level source may benefit from. The real benefit is having (where applicable, when they are not hindering something else) an output stage capable of driving capacitive loads. Of cource, manufacturers charging outrageous sums for their CD players and DACs should have considered this already, but don't bank on it at all. But as misfortune would have it, audiophiles and cottage industry manufacturers manage to invent and propagate all kinds of weirdness - and one that sprung up in the past year was people running short (really short) cables to their speakers for "better damping" and long (like 5-10m) interconnects. They must have been used to their systems sounding like ass with high capacitance cables (shielded types in particular), because they didn't hear the detrimental effects that it has on the preamp's signal integrity. Some preamplifiers are ahead of this and have a push-pull output stage that could drive speakers directly, although the preamp will prefer loads over 50 Ohms. There are preamps that are also biased for a higher quiescent current than power amps. Parasound comes to mind with their JC-80, if I recall.
 
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All well and good people .. but no one answered the OP's question.

Likely not going to get one either. Yamaha is very vague on this amp and how it works. Unfortunately I cannot answer but I have owned the A-S2000 for some time now and its an excellent Integrated. The rated power is exceeded I am convinced as I have driven pretty power hungry speakers with it. Tried many units here at home in the 3 - 5k price point, Yammy beat them all. Plus it has everything including MM/MC phono and headphone amp that sounds decent.

I too am curious to the actual workings but Yamaha tells little other than its a "new technology" they invented. Ad fluff?
 
Crikey! There is no question why some power amps are described as sounding different in people's setups - If the amp measures good on the bench but sounds poor on the rack with weak bass, slurred or harsh gritty highs, or just makes you want to turn it off, look to the input capacitance along the next-in-line component's output stage.

I read this quite a.bit on the forum..this amp or that amp is real sensitive to the preamp used. I think it's actually much more likely the other way around. The amp is fine...it's that oddball preamp with its abnormally high output impedance that's usually the bigger problem. :)
 
All well and good people .. but no one answered the OP's question.

Likely not going to get one either.
Both are easy to answer.
(A) The power supply capacitance was 22,000uF per rail, four rails in total.
(B) It's not, because it's not HCA. It is a balanced design with a fixed bias that is preset at the factory. If it was HCA, it would be class A.

I read this quite a.bit on the forum..this amp or that amp is real sensitive to the preamp used. I think it's actually much more likely the other way around. The amp is fine...it's that oddball preamp with its abnormally high output impedance that's usually the bigger problem. :)
It's semantics. Either the preamp's output stage is borderline stable, or it has a high output impedance and is driving a capacitive load. All amplifiers and devices have input capacitance. The input capacitance of the amplifier makes lesser preamp output stages prone to ringing, compression, or distortion, or frequency response deviations. Properly compensated preamp output stages have little problem here. You'll find more detail in Post #10.
 
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Nikko75 you answered nothing. Trying to sound smart you are, but I see no answer to the OP question.

All to often these forums go on and on like chinese water torture with no real facts. Just once I'd like to see facts in a sentence or two instead of off topic theoretical rantings and puffery
 
Nikko75 you answered nothing. Trying to sound smart you are, but I see no answer to the OP question.

All to often these forums go on and on like chinese water torture with no real facts. Just once I'd like to see facts in a sentence or two instead of off topic theoretical rantings and puffery
I think the problem is that you are not willing to accept the answers, both of which are clear. As to my writing style - it's mine - and that is how I have been trained to communicate in technical matters. Do not assume anything pertaining to anyone else. Some of us are educated and seasoned in electronics design, so railing against referenceable facts makes your argument look ignorant. Seeing that you have made no attempts to answer the OPs question and that you oppose the person bringing pertinent facts, it does look as though you are trolling. Let's investigate the facts at hand, using what better than the actual service manual.

hfTN79Z.jpg


Below, the power supply is compromised of four 22,000uF capacitors, two for the positive rails and two for the negative. 4 x 22,000uF Equals 88,000uF total capacitance. Each channel requires a positive and negative rail for audio reproduction, meaning each side has 44,000uF split between the positive and negative halves. Capacitors C335-336 and C308-309 complete the main amplifier section's filtering bank, as per the schematic. Those rails are fixed voltage, thus preventing any class H capabilities associated with HCA. This stands to reason; class HCA targets efficiency and is more applicable to higher power designs, rather than smaller designs that inherently use less power.

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Below, further confirmation of the supply capacitance is found in the parts list. Between this diagram and the previous, the first question is answered.

ehOygho.jpg


Below, the amplifier is a balanced design without any apparent hyperbolic class C bias stage prior to the current stage, thus it is not capable of class A. Adding to this information, Yamaha makes no claim of Class A nor HCA in this design's service and owner manuals. The schematic makes it clear this is a class AB current stage.

gVrN1KL.jpg
 
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So Class A/B

Capacitance is still kind of confusing in the long form answer

Not that I don't appreciate the effort. This amp is a mystery to many. I am not an electronics engineer so you are correnct - I didnt answer the OP's question. Just trying to steer it since the thread went on for awhile not touching the question. Thats not trolling, in fact its anti trolling IMO.
 
So.....

novice here. I scored a minty set of 1988 kilpschorns from the original owner.
(He even gave me a vinyl dealer Klipsch banner from when he bought them)

he gave me his adcom pre and amp but I am using vintage pioneer gear with the horns.

I understood class A amps were best for the horns?

Would a modern Yamaha high end amp be a decent pairing for the horns?

thanks
 
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