Still can't figure it out!

PShuff

Active Member
Why the left channel sounds different and seems weaker than the right?! :sigh:
We have noticed that one of our big output tubes is much cooler than the other 3 and it's one for the left
We can actually touch it for a fairly long time, the other 3 not so much
With this to go on, any ideas of a good place to start the search?
When we did the rebuild the voltages all seemed to be inline with the notes on the schematic
Also, the current readings at the little 10 ohm resistors was good too
Any suggestions on where to start would be welcomed! :banana:

Phyllis

P.S.: We got our tubes from Mr. McShane so they should be OK
 
Other than some environmental element is causing the one tube to operate much cooler, if you can hold on to the one output tube for any length of time at all, then it is either not conducting any current, or conducting very, very little current. I would re-verify that the 10 ohm cathode resistor for that tube is still in fact a 10 ohm resistor, and if so, that the voltage reading across it is correct for the target current flow.

Dave
 
What piece of gear?

I'm sorry!
We have a Fisher 500-C that was my Daddy's
It has an all new power supply and all the caps plus the new grid resisters
Everything works great just the channels sound different
The tubes have all been tested and tested again
Getting a plan together and noticed this
We don't have any lab equipment just a multimeter and a soldering iron

Phyllis
 
Other than some environmental element is causing the one tube to operate much cooler, if you can hold on to the one output tube for any length of time at all, then it is either not conducting any current, or conducting very, very little current. I would re-verify that the 10 ohm cathode resistor for that tube is still in fact a 10 ohm resistor, and if so, that the voltage reading across it is correct for the target current flow.

Dave

Hi Mr. Gillespie!
We haven't tried holding onto it, just touching with bare skin, but it is still much cooler than the other 3
It lights up and gets very warm but not HOT compared to the others if that makes sense
It is "V8" and on the end but "V11" which is also an end tube is still much hotter

Thank you! :banana:
Phyllis
 
I'll assume that Jim McShane sold you matched pairs or a matched quad of EH 7591s. He tests them well and I've found his 7591s to be the most reliable in terms of operating with even current draws.

Did you try swapping tube positions and see if the cool tube is the tube or the socket the tube is in? If the problem moves, it's the tube. If it doesn't, it's the tube position, not the tube.

Aside from measuring the values on the 10 ohm resistors on pin 5 of each 7591, measure the negative bias voltage at pin 6. That voltage comes from the output coupling cap and then passes in series through 1000 ohm resistors to each pin 6.
 
I'll assume that Jim McShane sold you matched pairs or a matched quad of EH 7591s. He tests them well and I've found his 7591s to be the most reliable in terms of operating with even current draws.

Did you try swapping tube positions and see if the cool tube is the tube or the socket the tube is in? If the problem moves, it's the tube. If it doesn't, it's the tube position, not the tube.

Aside from measuring the values on the 10 ohm resistors on pin 5 of each 7591, measure the negative bias voltage at pin 6. That voltage comes from the output coupling cap and then passes in series through 1000 ohm resistors to each pin 6.

Hi Don,
What sort of life are you getting out of them?

Phyllis
 
They last for years if biased under 40ma. That typically means a negative bias voltage of approximately -20Vdc on pin 6 and a pin 5 reading of .400mv/10ohms=40ma. 32-34ma is ideal.
 
Have you swapped the tubes to see if the issue migrates with the tube? It kind of sounds like a dirty tube socket...
 
If after doing some tube swapping and socket pin cleaning consider the volume pot.

Since the volume pot contains the on/off switch the first third or so of the rotation gets excessive wear. This is almost always uneven resulting in channel imbalance.
 
I'll assume that Jim McShane sold you matched pairs or a matched quad of EH 7591s. He tests them well and I've found his 7591s to be the most reliable in terms of operating with even current draws.

Did you try swapping tube positions and see if the cool tube is the tube or the socket the tube is in? If the problem moves, it's the tube. If it doesn't, it's the tube position, not the tube.

Aside from measuring the values on the 10 ohm resistors on pin 5 of each 7591, measure the negative bias voltage at pin 6. That voltage comes from the output coupling cap and then passes in series through 1000 ohm resistors to each pin 6.

Hi Don! :banana:
Still fighting this. Now that the weather is improving here we plan to revisit switches. Notably the "loudness". We could only spritz it initially and also it was frozen so you couldn't even switch it at first when we first started in on it. Dried up hard old grease.
The other day we had it open looking at voltages and stuff trying to find a problem that might explain this weirdness. I brushed a bunch of Deoxit I have sprayed into a nail polish bottle directly on the contacts you can't really reach with the switches screwed down tight, AND there seems to be a LITTLE change for the better.
So I am going to take it off the face plate and gently clean those contacts with polishing paper, but we have to wait until it's warm enough so we can go outside with it. Going to get a little bottle of the 100% Deoxit stuff too for things like this! :yes:
We also measured with our meter all the output transformer stuff talked about in the other thread about the channel differences. That one needed a new transformer! :( Thankfully, all our readings in ohms are good! :banana:
As for the matched tubes, they were but now they are all over the place draw wise, and things were starting to sound different too and not for the good, so we put the old old old originals back in and they are all biased up very close.
So much for the Russian tubes :(, in my mind anyway, no matter where you buy them. The EH ones lasted about 3 months from nearly perfect current use to all over the place. All our voltages are still fine including bias, even Mr. McShane says so. He said they are probably just worn out! We are not buying any more of those tubes for right now if they only last for months.
We did all the cap mods and stuff and our bias voltage was good to run them at about 13 or 14 watts..........and now we need new ones?
We are going to get the IBAM made sometime, as soon as we can and just enjoy the old U.S.A. tubes.
They make the music sound better anyway, just won't play as loud as the new ones. :no:
Maybe we can get the E.H.s working better with the IBAM!

Phyllis
 
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Phyllis; Can you take CURRENT (UP TO DATE RIGHT NOW TYPE) readings of the tubes. Granted past history is nice, but we need to know exactly what it's doing on each tube. All Pins. V-8 thru V11.

How about updating your profile with at least a state in it. That way if one of us is close by, a fresh set of eyes may spot the problem. Really! We Don't bite! We bark, growl, Howl at the moon at time, but don't bite.

If you have a camera (even a phone camera would work somewhat for closeups), please take a picture of the output area. If you can't fit it all in close, 2-3 are fine. Again fresh eyes.

Larry
 
If this is still an effort to find out why one channel is weaker than the other, the problem ultimately needs to be determined as to whether it is in the control stages or in the power amp stages. This can be determined rather easily.

Access the volume control, specifically where the groups of three terminals are on the front and back sections of the control (not the AC switch section!) Using a jumper wire with clips, short the center terminal of the two control sections together. If the the sound from the two channels is now equal (it will be mono with this test), then the power amp sections are fine, and the imbalance is in the line/tone control amp section. If the sound is still unequal, then the problem is in the power amplifier sections. This will let you know with certainty where to concentrate your efforts.

Dave
 
If this is still an effort to find out why one channel is weaker than the other, the problem ultimately needs to be determined as to whether it is in the control stages or in the power amp stages. This can be determined rather easily.

Access the volume control, specifically where the groups of three terminals are on the front and back sections of the control (not the AC switch section!) Using a jumper wire with clips, short the center terminal of the two control sections together. If the the sound from the two channels is now equal (it will be mono with this test), then the power amp sections are fine, and the imbalance is in the line/tone control amp section. If the sound is still unequal, then the problem is in the power amplifier sections. This will let you know with certainty where to concentrate your efforts.

Dave

Thank you! :banana:
We'll do this!

Phyllis
 
Phyllis; Can you take CURRENT (UP TO DATE RIGHT NOW TYPE) readings of the tubes. Granted past history is nice, but we need to know exactly what it's doing on each tube. All Pins. V-8 thru V11.

How about updating your profile with at least a state in it. That way if one of us is close by, a fresh set of eyes may spot the problem. Really! We Don't bite! We bark, growl, Howl at the moon at time, but don't bite.

If you have a camera (even a phone camera would work somewhat for closeups), please take a picture of the output area. If you can't fit it all in close, 2-3 are fine. Again fresh eyes.

Larry

Hi Larry!
No past history, just a week or so ago.
The Russian tubes:
V8
3 = 435
4 = 393
5 = .293 mV
6 = - 18.79

V9
3 = 432
4 = 393
5 = .364 mV
6 = -18.45

V10
3 = 432
4 = 393
5 = .531 mV
6 = - 18.77

V11
3 = 434
4 = 393
5 = .387 mV
6 = -18.44

Bias Voltage at grid resisters = -19.17 V

I'm not going to re-type everything 'cause the rest of the voltages stayed stable (the same)
We can see one of the old tubes is more tired than the rest. Still this set is closer than the new E.H.s, after only several months
V8 - .304 V = 13.04 watts
V9 - .308 V = 13.21 watts
V10 - .275 V weakest of the bunch = 11.79 watts
V11 - .302 V = 12.95 watts

We moved the old and the new around to try and get the best pairs on each side (thanks to some ideas we got from some of Don's posts! :banana:)
All these mA draws stay the same and follow the tubes no matter what socket they go in. So beginners that we are I think we can assume the sockets aren't the issue with the Russian tubes. They have just crazy drifted after a short time is all :(
The old ones work better. They actually sound better too as far as little details in the music.
Too bad they are just worn out :(
 
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If I may, what factors are being used here to make the determination that the old tubes are "worn out" and that the new tubes are in the same condition after just a few months?

If the new tubes were in fact matched when new, the data provided does indicate that the match has drifted significantly from what would be considered acceptable when new, but there is nothing in the data whatsoever to definitively state that any of the tubes are in fact worn out.

As for the drifting of the match in the new tubes, before condemning those tubes, I would first ensure that the 10 ohm cathode resistors are still accurate with regards to value, well matched between themselves, and that their ground connections all have good integrity. Any problems here will produce false readings of current draw in the tubes they serve -- potentially showing a mismatch, where none actually exists at all. I do not recall any serious complaints of EH tubes drifting wildly after an initial match has been made -- or has this changed?

Dave
 
If I may, what factors are being used here to make the determination that the old tubes are "worn out" and that the new tubes are in the same condition after just a few months?

If the new tubes were in fact matched when new, the data provided does indicate that the match has drifted significantly from what would be considered acceptable when new, but there is nothing in the data whatsoever to definitively state that any of the tubes are in fact worn out.

As for the drifting of the match in the new tubes, before condemning those tubes, I would first ensure that the 10 ohm cathode resistors are still accurate with regards to value, well matched between themselves, and that their ground connections all have good integrity. Any problems here will produce false readings of current draw in the tubes they serve -- potentially showing a mismatch, where none actually exists at all. I do not recall any serious complaints of EH tubes drifting wildly after an initial match has been made -- or has this changed?

Dave

Hi Mr. Gillespie! :banana:
The 10 ohm resistors have been checked and checked again. They are quality metal film, 1%, and we matched them before we soldered them in. The draw readings follow the tubes when we've moved them to other sockets like Don has suggested. The cold E.H. stays cold, cold enough to grab on and hold, no matter what socket it's in as well as the low draw. Same goes for the one dissipating almost 20 watts. It's as hot as a fire cracker and it too does the same thing no matter which socket it's in. But the voltages are all good and the same across all 4 sockets.
The less than 8 months old E.H.s have drifted like crazy since we bought them, no matter what position we put them in.
As for the old ones being worn out, we only surmise that they are tired based on their relatively low draw, their subjective sonic output and the fact that the silver getter flash? (if that's the right term) is all but gone. And the fact that I know Daddy put them in the receiver almost 40 years ago (we have the original receipt, they are G.E.s) and were changed out when the original rectifier was also changed. This service was the only service the unit ever received until we got a hold of it, as far as we know! I wasn't around at the time so don't know if the selenium rectifier failed or if it was just changed as a matter of good practice.
Still, the old ones as you can see from our measurements are relatively in line with one another, all things considered.
We can only test based on observation and what our little Fluke can show us.
But all the numbers stay the same and follow the tubes. We write down what we measure, move the tubes and then measure again.
The current draw is "better", as in close to one another, with the 40 years old ones than the new E.H.s.
I would think this neophyte logic is sound, wouldn't you agree? Or are we missing something?
And you are right, maybe they (the old ones) aren't worn out because they sound fine. Like I said they just don't have the loudness factor that the new tubes do.
All of this started trying to figure out why the right channel sounds stronger and clearer than the left, and why one of the E.H.s, on the left, was almost cold to the touch. The cold E.H. was originally installed in the left channel. It stays cold though no matter where we put it as I have just explained and the current draw no matter where we put it, substantiates this as being the tube (I would think?).
But after all of this, the left channel still sound different from the right even after moving things around several times, just not as obvious with the old tubes back in the unit.

Thank you for helping!
Phyllis
 
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Phyllis,
I think dcgillespie has pointed to the problem, but let's take it one step at a time. I read the frustration in your writing, but remember that we're here to help, not shout that you don't know enough.

So, I'm going to ask, as a troubleshooter, that you do what other veteran troubleshooters do. You put aside your frustration by walking away and returning at a time when your mind is clear and you methodically repeat what you've already done, one step at a time, in sequence.
This is like a math problem where the answer has gone wrong. You often take shortcuts in diagnosis and therefore keep missing the place where the error was made. So, no shortcuts. To find the problem with that shortcut, you have to rule out the things that are not the problem.

For all veteran troubleshooters, which I now officially deem you a member, there is a Sherlock Holmes logic axiom that applies.
'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?'

-The Sign of Four

So, Watson, let's reexamine this situation from a fresh perspective.

A couple of thoughts:
Thought #1:
I still wonder about your fusistors from cathode to ground. I've had them go bad when I applied too much heat in soldering. The clue is this phrase from post #17, "and we matched them before we soldered them in". Overenthusiastic soldering can create a problem. What would be the indicator that a fusistor is bad? Typically about 10ma more current at pin 5 than the current at other tube positions because the cathode is actually floating and doesn't go to ground. The fuse part of the resistor has blown.

Now, just for the sake of argument, lets say the cold socket is always V10, regardless of what tube was in that socket, I'd say your 10 ohm resistor was open. Test them.
The way to test the 10 ohm resistors now, while in circuit, is as follows:
With the unit upside down and powered off:
1. Pull the tubes and lay them down in a way that you can be sure you are putting the right tube back in the right socket when you will put them back.
2. Put the black meter clip (or probe if that's what you have) in a screw hole in the side chassis to reference ground.
3. Test each pin 5 to make sure that each resistor is 10 ohms.
If you find one is not ten ohms, you've found your problem.

Thought #2:
Who says that for diagnostic purposes you can't take two known good old small bottle tubes and two known good large bottle tubes and use them as pairs - at least for diagnostic purposes.
After you've completed the diagnostic for thought #1, mark all the tubes from both sets by position with a sharpie. So, V8 should be on two tubes and you shoulda had a V8.
Now put two good known pairs of tubes of each type (pair small bottle and pair big bottle) in the sockets.

Test the unit. Still got a cold tube? If yes, it ain't the tubes.

Oh, and you've really got to learn to take and post pictures.
To post a picture, click Go Advanced in the little window below when you're writing in the message field, and click the paper clip icon. Upload your photos in the little window that pops up when you click the paper clip.

Thought #3. There is no thought #3 right now. Thinking makes my head hurt. :nutz:

You've gotta upload pictures because enquiring minds need to know!
 
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Phyllis -- Adding to Don's thoughts, I hope you didn't perceive my previous post as coming at you with a pointed finger -- but rather, sometimes a given problem can get so convoluted in its assessments, with so many assumptions made, that you don't know what is true fact or fiction anymore. My comments were meant only to get the analysis process back to square one, which Don then hit out of the park with his comments in the previous post.

To his comments I would add:

1. When checking the 10 ohm resistors, the meter leads must first be literally clipped onto the leads of each resistor -- no exceptions. This absolutely eliminates any possible error introduced into the value indicated due to bad grounds, cold solder joints, etc.

2. Next, it is very important to check the integrity of the ground connections used for the 10 ohm resistors. Often, these resistors are grounded to ground tags on tube sockets, which themselves are only mechanically grounded to the chassis by way of their mount rivets. Over time, it is hardly uncommon at all to have significant resistance build up in these mechanical ground connections, which will then really distort the effective circuit value of a component you are otherwise assuming to be accurate from your basic test in step #1.

3. The grounds can best be checked by simply performing step number 1 again, but this time with one lead clipped to the chassis, and the other lead touching the various pin 5 terminals on each output tube socket. ANY difference in the reading from checking the resistors this way, versus the value they indicated when they were originally checked in step #1 indicates a ground integrity problem, which needs to be investigated and corrected before proceeding any further.

The point of all of this, is to make certain that the cathode resistance actually represented at pin #5 of each output tube to ground is in fact what it is understood to be. If it is not, then any current calculations using Ohm's Law will be erroneous, since what you are understanding to be 10 ohms, would in fact not be 10 ohms at all. With such small resistances involved in this issue, it doesn't take much error in actual resistance at all to produce significant errors in indicated current levels.

Once we get past this, then the voltage readings can be taken at face value with confidence, so that any assessment at that point is a clear indicator of the tube itself, and only the tube.

Dave
 
Hi Guys! :banana:
I don't think ANYONE is pointing a finger at me/us, you guys are great! :yes:
You have helped us biggest bunches.
BUT, I don't think you are understanding my last post :no:
I have learned how to test a resister and how to verify a good ground, all 4 of our fusisters are spot on 9.9 ohms and well grounded.

And once again, the respective current draws move with the tubes, whether it's the one that's too hot or the one that's too cold! Two of the four are doing what they they should, and they do it no matter which socket they are in so it's got to be the tubes!

And yes, we did check them while swapping tubes around by measuring from pin 5 to ground as well as across the resistor itself.
And one more time, the only frustration I am feeling right now is that two out of 4 new E.H.s aren't even close to the other two after a very short time
The old old old tubes are fine considering we don't have an IBAM to fine tune them, and ALL FOUR get appropriately hot to the touch as a normally functioning output tube should
I am REALLY sorry if anyone took offense and thought I was fussing at them!
No way, no how!!!!!
I am just a 23 year old girl dipping my toes into all of this, but I have enough sense (thanks Daddy) to see that the problem is following the the two whacked out tubes and is not the fault of a bad resistor or ground
This problem with the E.H.s was just a coincidental discovery during the search for the two channels sounding different. Once that is sorted out we plan on installing the IBAM and spluging on some nice NOS American tubes. This receiver is certainly worth that to me and I am willing to bet we won't be having any tube issues for about another 30 years! :):):)

Love you guys! :yes::banana:
Phyllis
 
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