McIntosh MT10 Turntable

playdrv4me

Active Member
I noticed this TT (and his little bro, MT5) isn't discussed much here, if at all. The discussion I started recently about all digital systems versus keeping some legacy analog got me thinking about it.

I went looking for info on it and found that it seems to just be a rebadged Clearaudio Champion with a Talismann V2 Gold cartridge (not that Clearaudio is anything to sneeze at, but I believe that TT is like 3k and the Talismann retails at 1700 or so). It seems Mac sends them the faceplate, they slap it on the base and connect it electrically somehow, then just ship it back to Mac who then plops it at the dealer without doing much if anything to it.

Is this truly the case, or is there something else that makes it worthy of McIntosh tax? I mean, this is one case where the product it's based on is almost as beautiful (if not moreso to some people) than the Mac product. So even appearance isn't quite a selling point for twice the money. One thing that is apparently nice about it is that it requires virtually no set up.

The only thing I've noticed is that there are about umpteen million different variations of the "Champion", including one called a Magnum that does go for more.
 
I'd love one, but not for the price. I imagine it is more for the McIntosh "completist". Would look great with a bunch of other Mac gear.
 
Well the MT-10 and 5 come setup and aligned which is worth quite a lot. Mcintosh did all the research and testing originally to get the guaranteed performance you expect. VPI should do the same, as should SME. How much money in test equipment and technician time does it take to get the performance of a stereo cartridge optimized. And the Mac chassis, face plate, modified tone arm and tested cartridges in limited numbers don't come cheap. Why doesn't Clear-Audio mount cartridges for their customers and guarantee performance like Mac does. Its expensive!!!!!
 
Of coarse we who were dealers had and did all the careful calibration for all our customer's tables...whether it was a $60 cartridge or a $2500 one.....to not be able to would quickly put you on a list with Gordon you did not want to be on.

In fact I am gathering up all the test gear to again be able to set up tables correctly.
 
He was quite the interesting character, you certainly wanted to be on his good side.

There was not a talk he did that did not stress the importance of proper turntable calibration and room voicing. It got to be so consistent that Skizo called him out one time and asked the rest of the crowd for a show of hands.....it was a hoot....but Gordon was not too pleased.
 
One of my favorite things about this forum and this brand are the stories and input from c_dk and ron-c and their involvement with Mac.
 
Why doesn't Clear-Audio mount cartridges for their customers and guarantee performance like Mac does. Its expensive!!!!!

I've never owned a SME table, but Clearaudio and VPI absolutely offer factory set up cartridges. Add Rega and Pro-Ject to the list as well.

In terms of the questions asked in the original post, I absolutely love the appearance of the McIntosh tables, but strictly in terms of performance one can get more performance for less. The MT5 in particular, I take one look at the tonearm and the cartridge that comes pre mounted and kind of cringe when I think of what could be had for that price. I've spoken to multiple McIntosh dealers about them and they just smile and say they sell them to customers who ask for them, but would never suggest them to somebody who hasn't already fallen in love with the aesthetics.
 
Do those sneering dealers have a Wild M5a microscope, a test bench with a scope to dial in a table? Have they invested those thousands of dollars or are they just being snarky? I do not think that selling a preset up table is the best way to go but maybe this is the best available solution.

I would never expect a shipped turntable to survive shipping and still be set up correctly, but do have to admit that too many of my contempories are no longer with us.....I fear that the knowledge those of us still around will be lost, supplanted with the BS spread by those who will not invest the major money it takes to do it correctly.

What happens in a year or two, depending on use, when the stylus gets worn. I know, you wait till you hear it chewing up your records, then you take it out of service.

A long term client (30 years) brought in his new to him, Revox table this week for a cartridge. He brought in a check list we gave him back in 1982 for a cartridge we sold and installed for him back then....a B&O mmc2.

This was something put together with McIntosh and JRB back in the day. I will scan and post as soon as I blank out his personal info.
 
:lurk: Setting up a turntable and to be able to check it out is what I am putting my off time toward.
 
Do those sneering dealers have a Wild M5a microscope, a test bench with a scope to dial in a table? Have they invested those thousands of dollars or are they just being snarky? I do not think that selling a preset up table is the best way to go but maybe this is the best available solution.

I don't understand what you're getting at. The suggestion that a McIntosh turntable doesn't perform as well as less expensive units isn't tied to the tools that one uses to set it up - especially when some of the less expensive turntables in question have objectively better tonearms that allow for more precise calibration.

As for your statement that it's preferable to set up a turntable in house vs. ship it pre configured from the factory, I agree in principle, even though I had no complaints about their performance. But from the website entry from the MT5: "MT5 is factory adjusted for perfect playback. Tracking force, anti-skate force, cartridge overhang and arm height are all preset for maximum performance." -- so let's not pretend that what one gets in exchange for their $6500 is having their McIntosh dealer set SRA with the Hubble telescope or something.
 
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Ok. So the "read between the lines" is that it's McIntosh tax then, basically.

On the one hand, this entire discussion only reinforces my point that Mac ought to stick to the core competencies (2 channel stereo receivers, tuners, amps, preamps, speakers perhaps, DACs and even the little mini systems like the McAire are OK in my book at the quality level that Mac produces them with the common thread between all of those being that they actually MAKE these products, or most of the product in-house) because as a buyer, it's never a good feeling you have about your equipment when you didn't do enough research and find out later your beloved brand repackaged someone else's candy and sold you a bag of goods with their name on it for the sake of shamelessly squeezing every dollar out of their clientele on name alone. *This* is probably the biggest reason why there is a whole class of both more *and* less snooty audiophiles who discount Mac to begin with. In this sense it's a lot like Bang and Olufsen, because Mac has spread themselves far and wide all the way to remote room controls and most of the other crap that B&O had for years as well, plus odd trinkets like $5000.00 power control units and clocks, which both Mac and B&O curiously and amusingly offer (BeoTime and MCLK12). I think this is why a lot of B&O guys, such as myself, eventually find themselves meandering to McIntosh. Problem is, B&O is a lifestyle brand, and that allows them to get away with being a whole home electronics provider. McIntosh is supposedly an audio FIRST company, so many of these ancillary "rebadged McIntosh in name only" products only serve to dilute the brand IMO (and yes, you could also make the argument that much like Porsche, things like the Boxster and Cayenne allow the company to survive and continue to make the 911s we all love so much. Fine, I guess.). I can't wait until we see the McIntosh equivalent of a Beovision *eyeroll*.

On the other hand, McIntosh engineers are not turntable engineers I guess, and from the little I've seen, the clearaudio stuff is some of the best gear in the TT world. So it's not a bad thing that Mac started with such a solid foundation to build yet another "Mac completionist" product around. That Steve Hoffman guy was loaned one of these by Mac when it came out and somehow ended up keeping it, then threw a Clearaudio Stradivari cartridge on it and absolutely RAVES about it, so it may well outperform turntables well above its price range. I may or may not have jumped on this MT10 bandwagon... and I'll be eager to report back. I'm no TT expert, however, so my analysis won't be of much use.
 
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McIntosh's customers are their dealers.........McIntosh owners are the local dealer's customers.

Owners tell dealers they want a TT, dealers tell Mac, Mac works with Clearaudio to satisfy that to their best ability. This is nothing new, GG was visiting various turntable and tonearm manufactures back in the 80s while he was working on his MC cartridge project.

I was fortunate to examine the first 5 prototypes with Gordon under the Wild scope and set up #3 in a SME arm.....talk about pressure. Took a hour and a half to get it dialed in with Gordon checking my every move.
 
I have no problem with McIntosh offering any product they choose. I'll choose whether or not to purchase it. How many of you have actually heard an MT5 or MT10 in person? If you haven't heard one, then how can you possibly be in a position to judge it?
 
I have no problem with McIntosh offering any product they choose. I'll choose whether or not to purchase it. How many of you have actually heard an MT5 or MT10 in person? If you haven't heard one, then how can you possibly be in a position to judge it?

A very big put off of this site, far too many experts in opinions and not hands on experience.

As far as the topic I don't know Jack:thmbsp:
 
A very big put off of this site, far too many experts in opinions and not hands on experience.

As far as the topic I don't know Jack:thmbsp:

Does your local dealer have the tools to properly set up a table in the tradition of, or to the standards that McIntosh imposed on the dealers back in the day?

How do we share the knowledge when it seems most local dealers to not want to implement it.

My issue is with the dealers.
 
Ok. So the "read between the lines" is that it's McIntosh tax then, basically.

On the other hand, McIntosh engineers are not turntable engineers I guess, and from the little I've seen, the clearaudio stuff is some of the best gear in the TT world. So it's not a bad thing that Mac started with such a solid foundation to build yet another "Mac completionist" product around. That Steve Hoffman guy was loaned one of these by Mac when it came out and somehow ended up keeping it, then threw a Clearaudio Stradivari cartridge on it and absolutely RAVES about it, so it may well outperform turntables well above its price range. I may or may not have jumped on this MT10 bandwagon... and I'll be eager to report back. I'm no TT expert, however, so my analysis won't be of much use.

I'm glad McIntosh makes turntables. I'm also glad they don't try to engineer them 100% themselves, as the best turntables are made by companies that specialize in them. The point here isn't that the McIntosh tables are bad, only that in a vacuum where one isn't looking for a turntable that matches his McIntosh system and turns on at the same time via data cables, one can spend a lot less to reach the same level of performance (specifically, one can buy the Clearaudio tables the McIntosh tables are based on for about half the price). To many McIntosh customers this isn't a concern, which is why again, I'm glad McIntosh makes turntables!

Per the above mention about Steve Hoffman, if you read his more recent posts, he uses a VPI Classic 2 in his otherwise all-McIntosh system. He sounds every bit as astounded by it as he was the MT10. VPI in their own way are sort of the McIntosh of turntables, hand made in America by a family owned company.
 
Does your local dealer have the tools to properly set up a table in the tradition of, or to the standards that McIntosh imposed on the dealers back in the day?

How do we share the knowledge when it seems most local dealers to not want to implement it.

My issue is with the dealers.

My dealer has a full blow repair facility, takes trade- ins and sell the used gear. On top of the sale of the compleat current line.

Oh as far as the TT ? YES:thmbsp:
 
I have no problem with McIntosh offering any product they choose. I'll choose whether or not to purchase it. How many of you have actually heard an MT5 or MT10 in person? If you haven't heard one, then how can you possibly be in a position to judge it?

Don't know if that was directed to me but I certainly didn't judge it. At least not yet.

I also don't tow the line for anyone or any brand. So if I see something that I think dilutes the brand I'm into, I'm going to call them out on it.

A bigger and more egregious example of this that I always bring up in these type discussions, is again with B&O... Many of the B&O followers over at BeoWorld are completely OK with B&O quietly moving their manufacturing facilities to China and places away from Denmark, which incidentally also has resulted in the loss of jobs for many long time B&O employees.

The reasoning is always that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and that the products will be "just as good as they always were" so we should buy whatever is for the betterment of B&O as a whole and keeps them in business. And my response is always simple... B&O is a lifestyle brand that, like McIntosh in the audiophile realm, does not wince at charging heavy premiums, sometimes twice as much *or more* as is evident in this thread for a similar product. So no, I'm not ok with manufacturing in China because it's not life or death situation, it's just MORE profit going toward the overpriced product. A premium I'm happy to pay when things are made where I want them made practicality be damned. Otherwise, you're just another Sony, Philips or anything else.

The Mac example isn't nearly to that level, but I'm not going to be afraid to speak my thoughts about it just because I'm amongst other enthusiasts.
 
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As far as opinions... That's kind of the point of enthusiast forums. Not everything is black and white and opinions are part of what makes a *discussion* forum worth visiting. We have a few experts here and that's good, but my personal experience does not always follow in lock step with them. And that's good, as we aren't all the same.
 
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