Vintage 80s/70s amp war

Copa1934 said:
By the way I've listened to equipment that is categorized as audiophile and it doesn't impress me in the manner it did 40 years ago. Back then the audible difference was quite substantial. It also didn't require a multitude of components (like active EQ, bi-amp, tri-amp, etc.), nor a degree or sufficient experience to hook it all up. At worst you might need some strapping lads to haul that K-horn into your home and position it.

I don't doubt for a moment that you have valuable knowledge or experience. But when you damn equipment in the manner you have, you loose respect and credibility. But to some people they don't care. Hope you aren't one of them.
Click to expand...

Copa, your point is well taken. I will try to remember your advise.

No, I do not have a lot of experience because I am not in the audio business. I am just an engineer who likes to listen to music and build audio gears as a hobby.

Old habit is hard to break. My interest in audio equipment grew up in the 1970 with Gordon Holt (Stereophile) and Harry Patterson (Absolute Sound). I remember well the great war of word between Gordon Holt and Julian Hirsch (of Stereo Review) because the later argued that there is no audiable difference once you bring the harmonic distortion of the amplifier below certain level. Today, we accepted that Julian Hirsch was proven wrong. But few people remember this piece of audio history. (I know that some of the Japanese manufacturers came around in the late 1970's and started designing with low TIM and duo mono, high current. But most of the entry level stayed the same too.)

My recent experience with a Rotel RSP-1068 and a Marantz 1602 is very positive. But the experience with an entry level Sony A/V receiver re-inforced my old feeling. (No, I am not a high-end fanatic.)

I also got into trouble with a post on turntable. I replied to a post by MisterPig agreeing with him on the charaterization of the sound of Technics SL-1200 TT. I have some memory of how those 30 years old direct drive turntable sound and commented that direct direct technology was not mature enough 30 years ago. I did not realize that there are a lot of fans of the Technics SL-1200 TT on AK today.
 
Vintagear said:
Everyone hears differently but I'm with kcbluesman on this one and I don't think we're the only ones with this opinion. Interesting that you mention vintage Luxman. Here's what a AK member Fat Fingers said in another thread in the modern forum. Keep in mind that the AU-717 is a lesser model than the AU-919 and the Luxman he has is the latest version of that amp that retails for just under $4k:

Over the last couple years I've had several integrateds, went through a vintage kick, and then modern. My background is solid state. I tried tubes and it was empty for me. All of the vintage units I restored. Here goes my recommendations of what I know (all played with LS-50's, Arcam rDAC, SVS subs, MiniMac, Pure Music):

1. Luxman L-505ux
2. Sansui AU-717 (amazing amplifier, best value)
3. Accuphase E-202 (more accurate than 2 but slightly more boring)
4. Pioneer SA-9100 (warm sound)
5. Prima Luna Dialogue Premium ($3400 upgraded with kt150's, go figure)
6. Pioneer A-71 (bump by the SA-9100when I got it)

I'm going to work with the Luxman for awhile.
Click to expand...


Interesting list you compiled here. I noticed 2 amps and list them below the top 1-2 on the list. From reading your post it appears you owned these particular units and spent some time investment to determine their rankings on your top 6 list as it were.

Well I have owned and used some of the items on the list and I would rate Luxman products as good but certainly not at the top any list.

Accuphase is a product line I have owned in the past and would jump on if something came up for sale in the budget again, it easily tops any McIntosh product I have ever heard and would snack on Luxman as an appetizer in a single bite. So this Luxman must have been purely one of a kind and no one else ever heard it before or after.

Those products are by no means lightweight items, but they are not in the same league as an Accuphase or some other amps available.

Sorry if that statement ruffles any feathers but that is true for me and after over 30 years of owning and/or listening to other systems it remains true.

The Prima Luna Dialogue Premium is one of particular interest since we performed a blind listening test and one of the amps that were selected above every single time was my Yaqin MC-30l with EH 6CA7s and Sylvanias 6AK5s installed. After about 50 hours on my Yaqin the test was done and listeners were listening to the speakers in another room at a friend's home. Now his place is set up well beyond even what most folks who consider themselves audiophiles would even have let alone invest the money he has done to perfect his listening environment.

That said, the Yaqin was chosen by all in attendance OVER the Prima Luna and many were surprised at the winner between those two. So with that knowledge and experience would bump that amp off and place the Yaqin on the list at least equal to the Prima Luna. BTW the listeners had among them musicians, recording engineers and other people involved in sound so by no means were the votes coming from people who were not conversant in sound reproduction.

I didn't expect that outcome and this comparison came about when that friend visited and said he wanted to do a comparison as he did these little shootouts when he comes cross new or new to him audio equipment.

So what does that say about the 2 compared? Well either the PL was not working correctly or the Yaqin was really underrated and @ $700.00 it then becomes a steal compared to the $3,400.00 price on the latter. That is a nice TT, Cartridge and Phono Pre-amp instead of a just an amp.

So I believe in blind tests the results can surprise you and all tests are subjective at best, it boils down to taking advice but ultimately it is the end user who will be listening and that must be the final and most important decision maker in the process. One can ask for opinions but they should use it as a guide and not the only source to base a decision upon. You can get 12 opinions from 10 people asking for their one and only favorite or even more.

So when I see someone's list just posted and nothing about why they arrived at it I don't know how they made it up or if they really spent any time with the items listed.. I also engage in a strict scrutiny approach when the history of how the list was compiled in the first is lacking in detail or in this case missing. How the rankings were done is left to the mental gymnastics of the reader it seems to determine as to why something is where it is on this list.

Bottom line by all means ask others for their opinions but regardless of what is said all strive to listen BEFORE you plop down the cash because once it is your property only then do you find out the reality of the purchase and Buyer's remorse happens more often than you would care to admit. One question I always ask is why is being sold and look the person in the eye when asking. I learned a long time ago sound ultimately is how it sounds to me regardless of the reviews from everyone else and if I like it then that is really what it comes down to. I can say with the folks I know I haven't heard anyone claim I made a bad decision.

Some might make suggestions on adding to a system but not one person has ever questioned something I purchased as I am secure I know when an item is worth the price and the intended use will be satisfied long after the first click of the switch happened.

Hermit
 
Last edited:
Hermit418 said:
Interesting list you compiled here. I noticed 2 amps and list them below the top 1-2 on the list. From reading your post it appears you owned these particular units and spent some time investment to determine their rankings on your top 6 list as it were.

Well I have owned and used some of the items on the list and I would rate Luxman products as good but certainly not at the top any list.

Accuphase is a product line I have owned in the past and would jump on if something came up for sale in the budget again, it easily tops any McIntosh product I have ever heard and would snack on Luxman as an appetizer in a single bite. So this Luxman must have been purely one of a kind and no one else ever heard it before or after.

Those products are by no means lightweight items, but they are not in the same league as an Accuphase or some other amps available.

Sorry if that statement ruffles any feathers but that is true for me and after over 30 years of owning and/or listening to other systems it remains true.

The Prima Luna Dialogue Premium is one of particular interest since we performed a blind listening test and one of the amps that were selected above every single time was my Yaqin MC-30l with EH 6CA7s and Sylvanias 6AK5s installed. After about 50 hours on my Yaqin the test was done and listeners were listening to the speakers in another room at a friend's home. Now his place is set up well beyond even what most folks who consider themselves audiophiles would even have let alone invest the money he has done to perfect his listening environment.

That said, the Yaqin was chosen by all in attendance OVER the Prima Luna and many were surprised at the winner between those two. So with that knowledge and experience would bump that amp off and place the Yaqin on the list at least equal to the Prima Luna. BTW the listeners had among them musicians, recording engineers and other people involved in sound so by no means were the votes coming from people who were not conversant in sound reproduction.

I didn't expect that outcome and this comparison came about when that friend visited and said he wanted to do a comparison as he did these little shootouts when he comes cross new or new to him audio equipment.

So what does that say about the 2 compared? Well either the PL was not working correctly or the Yaqin was really underrated and @ $700.00 it then becomes a steal compared to the $3,400.00 price on the latter. That is a nice TT, Cartridge and Phono Pre-amp instead of a just an amp.

So I believe in blind tests the results can surprise you and all tests are subjective at best, it boils down to taking advice but ultimately it is the end user who will be listening and that must be the final and most important decision maker in the process. One can ask for opinions but they should use it as a guide and not the only source to base a decision upon. You can get 12 opinions from 10 people asking for their one and only favorite or even more.

So when I see someone's list just posted and nothing about why they arrived at it I don't know how they made it up or if they really spent any time with the items listed.. I also engage in a strict scrutiny approach when the history of how the list was compiled in the first is lacking in detail or in this case missing. How the rankings were done is left to the mental gymnastics of the reader it seems to determine as to why something is where it is on this list.

Bottom line by all means ask others for their opinions but regardless of what is said all strive to listen BEFORE you plop down the cash because once it is your property only then do you find out the reality of the purchase and Buyer's remorse happens more often than you would care to admit. One question I always ask is why is being sold and look the person in the eye when asking. I learned a long time ago sound ultimately is how it sounds to me regardless of the reviews from everyone else and if I like it then that is really what it comes down to. I can say with the folks I know I haven't heard anyone claim I made a bad decision.

Some might make suggestions on adding to a system but not one person has ever questioned something I purchased as I am secure I know when an item is worth the price and the intended use will be satisfied long after the first click of the switch happened.

Hermit
Click to expand...

I'm with you, when I compare gear I always use an SPL meter and a switch box but you may have missed it, the list wasn't mine. I posted it to illustrate that there are more than a few of us that have experience with modern hi-fi equipment and still feel that there are many examples of (properly operating) mid-fi Japanese units from the late '70's that sound excellent. In some cases, better than some of the more expensive (even adjusting for inflation) units being sold today. Far from the "junk" that was mentioned earlier in this thread. So it was not to say they are better or worse, just that even a common mid-fi unit like the Sansui 517/717 is far from junk and can hold it's own.

Here's where the quote came from (see post #96).

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=441220&page=7

Yes there was a lot of "junk" sold back then as there is now but a Sansui 517 which is almost identical to a 717 is a good recommendation for the OP. The 517 was not TOTL by any means. The 717 & 517 were excellent mid-fi units. These units were marketed to the masses, not upper end hobbyists. That's why there are still so many of them out there today. They were very common.

Again, this is just an opinion that some of us hold, but that's what the OP asked for-an opinion on a vintage amp around the $130 range.
 
Vintagear said:
I'm with you, when I compare gear I always use an SPL meter and a switch box but you may have missed it, the list wasn't mine. I posted it to illustrate that there are more than a few of us that have experience with modern hi-fi equipment and still feel that there are many examples of (properly operating) mid-fi Japanese units from the late '70's that sound excellent. In some cases, better than some of the more expensive (even adjusting for inflation) units being sold today. Far from the "junk" that was mentioned earlier in this thread. So it was not to say they are better or worse, just that even a common mid-fi unit like the Sansui 517/717 is far from junk and can hold it's own.

Here's where the quote came from (see post #96).

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=441220&page=7

Yes there was a lot of "junk" sold back then as there is now but a Sansui 517 which is almost identical to a 717 is a good recommendation for the OP. The 517 was not TOTL by any means. The 717 & 517 were excellent mid-fi units. These units were marketed to the masses, not upper end hobbyists. That's why there are still so many of them out there today. They were very common.

Again, this is just an opinion that some of us hold, but that's what the OP asked for-an opinion on a vintage amp around the $130 range.
Click to expand...

Perfectly put. :thmbsp:
 
kcbluesman said:
While somewhat harder to find, I picked up an Optonica SM-4545 as partial payment for another amp I was selling a couple of years ago.

Two phono inputs, with a very good phono amp section...including variable capacitance and impedance. Excellent sound quality, and very well built. I had assumed I would just listen a bit and then sell it...instead, I've used it regularly in one of my systems. And, I am so impressed with it I recently bought another Optonica integrated - the SM-4646 (dual mono power supplies, plus separate transformer for the preamp section).

Effectively, I paid $50 for the 4545, then spent another $35 or so for parts to recap it. Paid $85 for the 4646...haven't done any updates to it yet. The only downside that I can see to the 4646 is that it uses difficult to find Darlington power packs. The 4545 has a fully discrete output section (and all of its boards are plug-in...very easy to work on).

I know that towards the end of their relatively brief existence, Optonica (Sharp's foray into a higher-end product line) put out some much lower-quality receivers and amps...but I can vouch for these two as exceptionally well-built consumer-class amps. So, if you happen to come across one in your searching, I recommend that you give it strong consideration.

By the way...I've had a KA-3500 - nice little amp, but not in the same league as either of these Optonicas from the standpoint of build quality or performance. On the other hand, the 3500's are pretty easy to find. I've also owned the KA-7100...agree with Jhoyt that it would certainly be worth considering vs the 3500...same build quality as the 9100, just less power.
Click to expand...

I saw your comment about the darlington power packs. I recently came across a load of Original Sanken S-80W hybrids, that had been sitting in their original packing in boxes from the 80's. They are 80 Watt hybrids that will work in the 4646, as the 4646 is rated at 60W per channel. I may actually post them in BT (Parts)
 
Mindbomb:

Having lived through the 70's and 80's I thought that most of the Japanese gear of at least the early 70's was inferior to the American brands, and I count Dynaco among the later. They very clearly got better as time went on, but I'm not sure when that transition actually happened.

Since you are in San Francisco, my neck of the country, I should tell you about a source for gear that you may not know about. Every month between April (perhaps March?) and September, on the 2nd Saturday of the month, there is an electronics swap meet down the peninsula at DeAnza College in the morning. I go to them all as a form of indulging this hobby. Sometimes you can get a great deal, many times you can't. I managed to pick up a Technics SL1300 with Shure V15iii (minus stylus) for $10. You never know what you'll find. If you carry a smart phone with a data plan, bring it with you. You will be able to research what you find online. Vinyl Engine and Hi-Fi Engine are both quick reference sites that you can use while there.

Here is a link to more information:

http://www.electronicsfleamarket.com/

I really suggest you try at least one visit before you purchase. There are almost always amps and or receivers there. Get there early. I usually try to leve the house (Alameda) by about 7:00 or 7:30 depending upon whether my son is coming with me or not.

Good Luck

Shelly_D
 
shelly_d said:
Mindbomb:

Having lived through the 70's and 80's I thought that most of the Japanese gear of at least the early 70's was inferior to the American brands, and I count Dynaco among the later. They very clearly got better as time went on, but I'm not sure when that transition actually happened.

Since you are in San Francisco, my neck of the country, I should tell you about a source for gear that you may not know about. Every month between April (perhaps March?) and September, on the 2nd Saturday of the month, there is an electronics swap meet down the peninsula at DeAnza College in the morning. I go to them all as a form of indulging this hobby. Sometimes you can get a great deal, many times you can't. I managed to pick up a Technics SL1300 with Shure V15iii (minus stylus) for $10. You never know what you'll find. If you carry a smart phone with a data plan, bring it with you. You will be able to research what you find online. Vinyl Engine and Hi-Fi Engine are both quick reference sites that you can use while there.

Here is a link to more information:

http://www.electronicsfleamarket.com/

I really suggest you try at least one visit before you purchase. There are almost always amps and or receivers there. Get there early. I usually try to leve the house (Alameda) by about 7:00 or 7:30 depending upon whether my son is coming with me or not.

Good Luck

Shelly_D
Click to expand...

Anyone know if there is anything like this in the LA area? also - isn't that where KFJC is located?
 
59volvo said:
Anyone know if there is anything like this in the LA area? also - isn't that where KFJC is located?
Click to expand...

Yep

Chino hills Swap on 3rd Saturday of the month and TRW on the last Saturday.

Just search for the CHHS Swapmeet and the info is on theier page. TRW is long running but is not like it was in the 80's and 90's as THE major Ham Radio event, now it is more towards a general swap with electronics.

You can find some vintage stuff if you look around but be very careful some of the folks selling just peddle storage unit stuff and you can't be sure it works or not but they will almost always claim it does. then if you try to return it even with their promises some won't make good.

There are good folks out there who do stand behind what they sell and it isn't hard to find who they are.

Word of caution one group brings a large truck with gear out there but make absolutely sure it functions as their warranty id 5 seconds or 5 feet and they will promise anything to sell their gear. Some of it is okay while other stuff is pure junk so again be very careful inspecting it BEFORE handing over any money because you buy it, it is yours and the security will remove you if you get upset over getting punked.

I have seen this more than once someone upset over a unit they didn't inspect and the seller always claim it is damaged by the buyer in case someone tries to bring back an item. I had purchase a TT from one of these guys and even with a written receipt hand written by one of them to refund or replace if it didn't perform as sold wound up eating it.

Still trying to find the broken center spindle gear for that PS-3300 Sony. It works but the auto shut off doesn't due to the cracked gear. There was no way to check it out since electrical power was not present and there isn't a place to plug it into on site to test it.

If you aren't experienced and/or have knowledge about vintage gear then take or find someone who is to go with you when hitting these swaps.

Send me an PM and lets exchange # as I regularly go to those 2 swaps and willing to help if I can. I can at least point you to the more honest sellers or possibly give some info about a particular unit or piece of gear if you need it.

Hermit
 
shelly_d said:
Mindbomb:

Having lived through the 70's and 80's I thought that most of the Japanese gear of at least the early 70's was inferior to the American brands, and I count Dynaco among the later. They very clearly got better as time went on, but I'm not sure when that transition actually happened.

Shelly_D
Click to expand...

Solid state audio amplification was just maturing in the 60's and 70's. Some manufacturers trusted meters and ended up design gears using high overall feedback loop. It gave them stable circuit with very low harmonic distortion when measured with pure resistive loads. It looked good on paper, but sounded bad. Others, mostly those from the US, trusted their ears more and designed accordingly. In the 70's, I lived in Minneapolis when it was a hot bed of American Audio industry led by Audio Research (Bill Johnson).

But the American gears from that era cannot compete with the Japanese equipments in look and construction.

The research on good sounding audio amplification started in the 60's and getting crystalized in the mid 70's. By late 70's, some of the high end Japanses brands started to catch up. But the entry level gears using power IC were not changed much, if at all.
 
keilau said:
Solid state audio amplification was just maturing in the 60's and 70's. Some manufacturers trusted meters and ended up design gears using high overall feedback loop. It gave them stable circuit with very low harmonic distortion when measured with pure resistive loads. It looked good on paper, but sounded bad. Others, mostly those from the US, trusted their ears more and designed accordingly. In the 70's, I lived in Minneapolis when it was a hot bed of American Audio industry led by Audio Research (Bill Johnson).

But the American gears from that era cannot compete with the Japanese equipments in look and construction.

The research on good sounding audio amplification started in the 60's and getting crystalized in the mid 70's. By late 70's, some of the high end Japanses brands started to catch up. But the entry level gears using power IC were not changed much, if at all.
Click to expand...

Actually, one of the reasons I really don't know when the performance of Japanese gear got better is because I was influenced by the look of the front panels. I thought they all pretty much looked poorly laid out, very cluttered looking and confusing, and I knew what the all did. I compared that to the front panel of my Eico 3070 and came to the conclusion that the Japanese did not have it together. In the early 70's I believe that true of their performance as well. American gear, to my eye, have a much cleaner layout with the controls you wanted much easier to find.

Shelly_D
 
moejr said:
Another option in the Kenwood line is the KA-405. It is 55 wpc and a sweet sounding amp. Can be had in your budget range. I have one and it is a gem. Don't get caught up in specs. You cannot hear the difference between .005% THD and .5%.

I am not going to engage Keilau as he's out in left field without a glove. I have learned it is easier to block them than argue with them.
Click to expand...

One of my systems is now running a Kenwood KA 405 integrated (I scored it today for some trade, and $20 cash). It is driving "The Advent Loudspeaker" from 1974. And very well. Nice musical detailed sound, without excessive brightness. Plenty of power, and headroom for the Advents. Very sweet sounding. Nice listening. I love my KA 405, and plan on enjoying it for many years. My ear is trained and respected. I love this old integrated, it's very nice.
 
I would like to add credence to blind tests.
BTW some of the greatest values in audio are early Sony receivers.
 
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