Super Hi-Res Formats

I turned 60 last year. I'm officially an old fart, even though I can't claim to have 5 decades of experience at much of anything.

I stored my TTs (Dual 1229 and B&O 8002, still have them) and switched to CD, because it stopped me from clumsily damaging any more records. I liked analog sound better, but the convenience won me over. Over the years, I've tried just about everything that's come along, and unlike most folks on this site, I'm open to trying just about anything, mostly without bias or preconceived notions.

That's the reason for this thread. I read great things on this site (and elsewhere) about DSD-128 and 256, from you, Billfort, and others; so I want to give them a try. I need to find a way to give them a fair chance, without spending a fortune on the experiment.

The guy in that attached cartoon picture you posted has a dam nice system! lol!

Thats why I invested in the iFI Micro DSD with iUSBPower....wasn't a terribly costly setup and if I didnt like it, I could send it back. But I was willing to spend less than $1k to experiment in my own system. I got some recommendations from friends, did a little research on product and went with the iFI Micro. Now knowing what I know, I'd spend about $2k if I want to move up the DSD DAC chain, but she has to have the ablilty to be upgraded, because this technology is still changing. The iFI Micro goes up to quad processing so its future proofed up to that point. But in my opinion, the key to taking a good DSD DAC to a great DSD DAC is to find excellent cabling. DSD 128 and above will give you so much detail and some of the inferior cabling wont let you hear it...so quality is a must when it comes to cabling! A good powerful processor is also need for DSD.
 
I have read, repeatedly, and without substantial disagreement, that recording in 24/192 allows the engineers to do things in mixing that lesser formats don't.

I understand the advantages for engineering/mixing, but in your readings have any of these advantages been shown to be beneficial for end-user consumption?
 
I was in your shoes about a year ago, i heard DSD via a Sony HiRez player it sounded great but the music was classical and at that time it seemed that only classical downloads were available which really is not my bag.

DSD was always in the back of my mind but until classic rock and jazz were available i was not that interested. Then i was invited to a grouping of music lovers and that was when i heard Tom Petty on DSD being played thru a Lampizator big 7 DAC and i was floored. Unfortunately there were 10 other people there with equipment that they wanted to show off so the person with the Lampizator only was able to play a couple of songs. Being polite and listening to the others equipment i did not realize that the person with the Lampizator had taken off to catch a flight. I had so many questions to ask him but the listening session left a lasting impression. The one thing that i know is that he was using JRiver and a Mac Laptop.

So as of today i have a Lampizator Amber on order, i plan on using Jriver and a Mac Laptop or miniMac. This should get me in the door and all of the tips and tricks will have to come later. I need to know what i`m doing first.

The big thing is that there is more than classical being offered on DSD for downloading and that is why i pulled the trigger on the Lampizator Amber.

Thanks for the post, get back to us on how it sound when you get it all together.

AMBER%20PLUS-filtered.jpg


AMBER%20BLACK-filtered.jpg


AMBER%20REAR-filtered.jpg
 
The guy in that attached cartoon picture you posted has a dam nice system! lol!

Thats why I invested in the iFI Micro DSD with iUSBPower....wasn't a terribly costly setup and if I didnt like it, I could send it back. But I was willing to spend less than $1k to experiment in my own system. I got some recommendations from friends, did a little research on product and went with the iFI Micro. Now knowing what I know, I'd spend about $2k if I want to move up the DSD DAC chain, but she has to have the ablilty to be upgraded, because this technology is still changing. The iFI Micro goes up to quad processing so its future proofed up to that point. But in my opinion, the key to taking a good DSD DAC to a great DSD DAC is to find excellent cabling. DSD 128 and above will give you so much detail and some of the inferior cabling wont let you hear it...so quality is a must when it comes to cabling! A good powerful processor is also need for DSD.
You do NOT need any processing power for DSD playback. It just takes file packs it into DoP and sends via USB. Arduino can do that.

Good analog cables are indeed necessary because of all that ultrasound if noise at DSD DAC output. Though the higher sampling rate you get - the less noise is produced.
 
...Good analog cables are indeed necessary because of all that ultrasound if noise at DSD DAC output. Though the higher sampling rate you get - the less noise is produced.
I understand the advantages for engineering/mixing, but in your readings have any of these advantages been shown to be beneficial for end-user consumption?

Advantages to the end-user were not discussed, other than the implied advantage of having the mix turn out the way the engineers wanted.

Please do not bring the topic of benefits for 'end-user consumption' (or the all too easily implied topic of whether hi-res is better) in this thread, as requested in the OP.
 
[Mod Edit: Please stick to the rules in the OP]

For the viewing audience so they don't think my post was dickish: the post was about the effect of tubes in hardware/decoders and would they negate the benefit of going super-Hi-Res, NOT about whether super-Hi-Res files have any merit.

It was totally in line with the OP's request:
"NB: this thread is NOT open for discussion about whether the HD formats sound better, and thread craps and snide remarks along these lines will have consequences, as will comments about high prices, etc.
 
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Thanks for the post, get back to us on how it sound when you get it all together.

AMBER%20PLUS-filtered.jpg


AMBER%20BLACK-filtered.jpg


AMBER%20REAR-filtered.jpg

Will do. I have been told that even though it`s their entry level DAC it equals some other company`s top level Dac`s and at it`s price it`s hard to beat. I have only heard the big 7 but have been told that the Amber is not too far off from the sound of the 5 which has glowing feedback.

I`m like a kid waiting for Christmas.
 
...What has amazed me is the "on the fly" conversion of redbook tracks to DSD128 and how good they sound. It does not make sense to me but they do sound darn good. Maybe this is the best of both worlds? Storage at 16/44 and play at DSD128...

This isn't quite on-topic, but seems to me to be worth its own thread, given the number of people who agree.

Unless you object, I'll move it to a new thread... and seeing no objection, I moved it.
 
Has anyone actually heard any of the newer Super-HD formats, like 32/192, 32/384, DSD-256, DSD-512?

Yes. Started for me a few years ago and on very highly resolving systems, I really liked what I heard – particularly high-rate DSD – so that’s what I focused on. A few years ago, only exaSound was demoing DSD256 and to me it was the best digital I’d ever heard, something that finally had me forgetting about vinyl (for a little while anyway :)).

As good as the DSD256 was (or is) though, I feel DSD128/SDM5.6 is MUCH more here-and-know and obtainable – certainly if you are in the test-drive mode. Here’s the thing though and this is very much just my opinion (which many here will disagree with) – decide first if you like DSD128 on a DAC that does it well and set your focus. Maybe borrow a DSD DAC (shoot for 128 right off the bat), grab some source files, a laptop, load some demo software and listen in your own system. Go beyond sound-bite wow-factor evaluation, really ‘listen’ to some music and see if it sucks you in enough to forget about the system.

Try source material that has no PCM conversion along the way - analog or DSD recordings & mastering, preferably DSD128 files. It’s out there (including free samples), particularly from the likes of;

https://www.nativedsd.com/
http://bluecoastrecords.com/
http://www.prostudiomasters.com/

These sites have a fair bit of DSD128 to pick from and are pretty careful about disclosing provenance. The likes of [URL="http://store.acousticsounds.com/"]http://store.acousticsounds.com/[/URL] have a much wider selection of material and formats and may end up more of a go-to source but I’m suggesting making the call on DSD128 first. If you prefer hi-res PCM or have no interest in DSD, you are on a different path but if DSD128 is the ‘sweet spot’ for your DAC and tastes – my rambling might have meaning.

DSD128 works on many DACs now, from the $200 iFi iDSD nano on up to the top dog $15k Lampizator but believe me, you get a very good taste of what this format is capable of even from something as pedestrian as the $800 Concero HD (that I use). DSD128 can work using DoP USB DAC drivers that are widely available for Mac, Windows and Linux (Linux opens up 2pc streaming options on low horse-power/low $ hardware), but DSD256 currently puts you in bleeding-edge territory where custom Windows ASIO drivers (don’t know Mac) become necessary.

Then there is conversion and I’ve found that if you really get the DSD128 conversion right off-DAC, you can get amazing results by utilizing the hot-rod/PCM filter by-pass routes provided in some of these modern DACs – forget sending them PCM. Now you get into software from free to expensive (Signalyst’s HQplayer is about $150) and this is worth spending time experimenting with – there IS a difference and IMO the best costs $150. Exactly how well this software does conversion is the difference between all digital sounding fantastic as DSD128 or the often pushed view that PCM should stay PCM. Sure, I’ve heard some amazing PCM DACs like the Berkeley and AudioNotes but forget DSD on those and at the lower price points (maybe most any price point?) one size does not necessarily fit all – a do all DAC might not do all as well.

Software choice then dictates all kinds of downstream decisions but suffice it to say that DSD128 via Jriver in a Mac or Pc world (for example) might be a very different place than what can (must?) be done to get the best out of HQplayer - especially if even higher DSD rates are in your future. Again, getting to a comfort level with a format first makes subsequent decisions on software, hardware, even network infrastructure easier and more focused. And yes, just 'playing' these formats straight-up can be done with low-end machines and free software; worth a try but keep an open mind - you just might find as I did that there is a hell of a lot more that can be done by looking beyond this view.

I wish I would have been happy with Jriver on a laptop or the view that one DAC can do everything just fine, that bitstreaming straight-up is all that is needed, etc. but then I heard what is possible with on-the-fly conversion to higher rate DSD and a good DSD DAC – and I’m hooked. Yes, DSD128 source files sound incredible but the really exciting thing for me is how good well recorded and mastered DSD64, 24/192, 24/96, even 16/44 PCM sounds on that same DAC. Pretty cool to be able to grab a crusty old used CD for $1 and be blown-away by the sound quality of the rip playing as DSD128 (assuming good mastering) – that hasn’t happened for me with a used vinyl record in a VERY long time.

‘Super-HD’ formats above and beyond this are interesting to me and I’ll get there when the edge isn’t so bloody but DSD128 is here-and-now, convenient, relatively affordable and with the right up-sampling, brings all my digital into a place I didn’t think possible a few years ago.
 
Yes. Started for me a few years ago and on very highly resolving systems, I really liked what I heard – particularly high-rate DSD – so that’s what I focused on. A few years ago, only exaSound was demoing DSD256 and to me it was the best digital I’d ever heard, something that finally had me forgetting about vinyl (for a little while anyway :)).

As good as the DSD256 was (or is) though, I feel DSD128/SDM5.6 is MUCH more here-and-know and obtainable – certainly if you are in the test-drive mode. Here’s the thing though and this is very much just my opinion (which many here will disagree with) – decide first if you like DSD128 on a DAC that does it well and set your focus. Maybe borrow a DSD DAC (shoot for 128 right off the bat), grab some source files, a laptop, load some demo software and listen in your own system. Go beyond sound-bite wow-factor evaluation, really ‘listen’ to some music and see if it sucks you in enough to forget about the system.

Try source material that has no PCM conversion along the way - analog or DSD recordings & mastering, preferably DSD128 files. It’s out there (including free samples), particularly from the likes of;

https://www.nativedsd.com/
http://bluecoastrecords.com/
http://www.prostudiomasters.com/

These sites have a fair bit of DSD128 to pick from and are pretty careful about disclosing provenance. The likes of [URL="http://store.acousticsounds.com/"]http://store.acousticsounds.com/[/URL] have a much wider selection of material and formats and may end up more of a go-to source but I’m suggesting making the call on DSD128 first. If you prefer hi-res PCM or have no interest in DSD, you are on a different path but if DSD128 is the ‘sweet spot’ for your DAC and tastes – my rambling might have meaning.

DSD128 works on many DACs now, from the $200 iFi iDSD nano on up to the top dog $15k Lampizator but believe me, you get a very good taste of what this format is capable of even from something as pedestrian as the $800 Concero HD (that I use). DSD128 can work using DoP USB DAC drivers that are widely available for Mac, Windows and Linux (Linux opens up 2pc streaming options on low horse-power/low $ hardware), but DSD256 currently puts you in bleeding-edge territory where custom Windows ASIO drivers (don’t know Mac) become necessary.

Then there is conversion and I’ve found that if you really get the DSD128 conversion right off-DAC, you can get amazing results by utilizing the hot-rod/PCM filter by-pass routes provided in some of these modern DACs – forget sending them PCM. Now you get into software from free to expensive (Signalyst’s HQplayer is about $150) and this is worth spending time experimenting with – there IS a difference and IMO the best costs $150. Exactly how well this software does conversion is the difference between all digital sounding fantastic as DSD128 or the often pushed view that PCM should stay PCM. Sure, I’ve heard some amazing PCM DACs like the Berkeley and AudioNotes but forget DSD on those and at the lower price points (maybe most any price point?) one size does not necessarily fit all – a do all DAC might not do all as well.

Software choice then dictates all kinds of downstream decisions but suffice it to say that DSD128 via Jriver in a Mac or Pc world (for example) might be a very different place than what can (must?) be done to get the best out of HQplayer - especially if even higher DSD rates are in your future. Again, getting to a comfort level with a format first makes subsequent decisions on software, hardware, even network infrastructure easier and more focused. And yes, just 'playing' these formats straight-up can be done with low-end machines and free software; worth a try but keep an open mind - you just might find as I did that there is a hell of a lot more that can be done by looking beyond this view.

I wish I would have been happy with Jriver on a laptop or the view that one DAC can do everything just fine, that bitstreaming straight-up is all that is needed, etc. but then I heard what is possible with on-the-fly conversion to higher rate DSD and a good DSD DAC – and I’m hooked. Yes, DSD128 source files sound incredible but the really exciting thing for me is how good well recorded and mastered DSD64, 24/192, 24/96, even 16/44 PCM sounds on that same DAC. Pretty cool to be able to grab a crusty old used CD for $1 and be blown-away by the sound quality of the rip playing as DSD128 (assuming good mastering) – that hasn’t happened for me with a used vinyl record in a VERY long time.

‘Super-HD’ formats above and beyond this are interesting to me and I’ll get there when the edge isn’t so bloody but DSD128 is here-and-now, convenient, relatively affordable and with the right up-sampling, brings all my digital into a place I didn’t think possible a few years ago.

Great posting,Billfort!

If hi-rez PCM was all there was, I'd never would have purchased a DAC. Thats a profession of how much I enjoy DSD 128!
 
Lots of buzz in various places about this playback software:

http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html

Not only can it play back DSD files, it's also capable of upsampling everything you feed it to DSD. I've played around with the software a bit and it sounds great for standard playback (including hi res up to 24-192) but I don't have a DSD capable DAC currently to test drive the upsampling capability.

I was just looking through this program, and I don't know if I've seen a more confusing setup process to upsample to dsd. I'm toggling on whether or not to even mess with it. How much is the license?
 
I was just looking through this program, and I don't know if I've seen a more confusing setup process to upsample to dsd. I'm toggling on whether or not to even mess with it. How much is the license?

I was able to play around with it and get nice music out of her for about a few days before the trial period ended. Yes, its difficult to find your way around in there, and its not as friendly and pretty looking as Jriver. I may revisit it down the road. You pay about $150. for the license.
 
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