Anyone here know about Ambiophonics?

Fishead

Gone fishin' Steada just wishin'
Subscriber
Hello all, not usually found in this territory as I'm generally over on the TT forum, so a big "howdy" to you!

After doing all the tweaking I could do with my system (phono, vinyl listener) I came to the unavoidable conclusion that, as you all likely know here on this forum, that it's ALL ABOUT THE SPACE after you've maxed out everything else! Unfortunately, I am not able to redesign my house and my listening space is far, far from ideal. Soooo.....went on a quest to find more information and possible solutions to at least make it as good as it might be. Admittedly, I'm a newbie to this frontier and will try to enhance my understanding of such things as bass traps and wall treatments etc. etc., but the single most profound thing I've picked up on these past few days is about ambiophonics and the science behind it. Again, don't profess to know much about it since it is a bit overwhelming and requires more knowledge than I have to digest it fully, but the one thing I picked up on that has helped tremendously is about speaker placement....

Previously, I had attempted to use the conventional approach of the equilateral "triangle" and found it OK, but I seemed to be lacking a bunch of frequencies that my gear should be infinitely capable of revealing. When I put on my Sennheiser HD600 headphones, it was all there.....take 'em off and just listen to the speakers.....much was gone! The one thing I did get, right off the bat, about the ambiophonics stuff was that moving the L & R front speakers close together would provide better sound......huh? That just didn't jive with my previous 50+ years of listening experience but I also had never done that.....just didn't seem "natural," after all we've been told about stereo separation and imaging and blah blah blah.....

Well, here's my conclusion. With my L & R speakers no more than about 32 inches apart, directly in front of me and aimed at my nose roughly 12 feet away from my listening position, everything has changed. Instead of narrowing the soundstage, it is HUGE!!! At first, with my eyes open and looking at the close proximity of the speakers, it didn't really register. Then, closing my eyes, I realized what had just happened and am blown away.

Just wondering if anyone else here has experience with this and would really appreciate your comments/observations/feedback. If you have the flexibility in your room, please give this a try and tell me what YOU think.

I did have to make some other fine-tuning adjustments, e.g. moving a large overstuffed chair out of the room and this opened up the soundstage even further. I also took my center channel speaker totally out and increased the output from my rear speakers (now I have, basically, a 4-speaker stereo system) as suggested on the ambiophonics site. Here's the link:

http://www.ambiophonics.org/

I have a long ways to go as far as understanding it but even this relatively basic tenet of the theory has piqued my interest and moved me towards uncharted territory, at least for me.

Thanks for reading and look forward to meeting some of you here on this forum of AK....
 
Wow! 61 views and counting and not a single reply? I am really interested in your "comments/observations/feedback" as I stated, but perhaps I'm in the wrong forum?

Anxiously awaiting. Let me also clarify that I am not employing any sort of DSP as I understand to be available from Ambiophonics, just employing some of the ideas regarding speaker placement that I picked up on from their site.

Thanks again.
 
I'm curious...just haven't had a chance to read the article.

And I'm a strong believer/proponent/user of DRC and room treatments used in conjunction with one another.
 
Thanks! I think you'll find it most informative but I haven't read it all myself....just too much that I don't understand and have to read up to see what I'm reading about!!! In any case, the speaker placement I spoke of was the single, most exciting part about it for me and really addresses the subject of the "listening space" in a way I'd never realized before. Let me know when you get time and thanks again for responding....
 
I've played around a lot with ambiophonics. It is really really unbelievably cool. Not many people believe it though. I don't think most people have the patience to set it up. EVERYBODY should set it up and try it out, its not a gimmick.

I paid a paltry sum for the Ambiophonic DSP (http://electro-music.com/) when I realized I could utilize it in most media file playback programs (JRiver for instance).

Room treatments are important in an ambio set up. In fact ambio is pretty demanding of a good set up. When I finally got my set up right, I was 12-14 feet from my speakers and they were about four feet apart.

Eventually, I packed it up because I was missing some other aspects of the music that I enjoyed in the standard stereo set up. Namely detail. Everything fell into a really cool, headphone-like sound, which brought out loads of cool weirdness without over-processing the music, however, in stereo I could hear more "inner detail" so I switched back. I think my set up could had been better and so could had my speakers.

It might be that the speaker for an ambio set up should be "beamy" and very well matched. I think that the standard convention for good speakers might go out the window. Modern, accurate monitor may the right route. I just got a pair but am enjoying them too much in conventional stereo, for the moment.
 
Wow, I never heard of ambiophonics before but it sounds very interesting. I doubt I would have placed my speakers that close even while experimenting but now I feel compelled to give it a go.

Thanks so much for sharing the link so I can start to get educated. Luckily the link is a .org site (like AK) that I can access on the Navy ship.

I look forward to hearing more about ambiophonics .
 
Choueiri

I forgot to mention what got me interested in ambio in the first place, a dude named Edgar Choueiri. An expose on his 3D audio lab was written up in the New Yorker. Then I went online to listen, here's a link to some files to try out:

http://www.studio360.org/story/126833-adventures-3d-sound/

His filtering is essentially ambiophonics filtering done in advance with a lot of computation. So, you listen to ambio-tuned files instead of listening to regular files through a filter.

That's way easier. So, give it a try and maybe you'll want to investigate thi rabbit hole.
 
Thanks for your observations and comments.

Just to clarify, I have not employed any of the software mentioned in the book on ambiophonics, just using the suggestions on speaker placement for the time being. By modifying the front speaker placement in my room (to within about 2 ft. from one another), using the rear 2 channels as simply right and left (about 8 ft. apart), with some volume adjustment achieved by just listening, and playing with the delay settings available in my processor I am very amazed with the degree of realism achieved.

More than that, I am hearing things, details (frequencies) that with the normal "triangle" arrangement were not present likely due to the effects of crosstalk, as I understand it.

There is a whole lot more to this technology than meets the eye, or ear, as it were, and lots to explore. For the moment, I am enjoying myself immensely with what I am hearing....and just scratching the surface (pun intended....:)

PS - Just to further clarify, I have gone to listening almost exclusively to vinyl.....provides me with the most warmth and detail although I have a lot of high resolution digital media (DVD-Audio discs, SACDs) that also sound very, very nice.

Snilson, many thanks for the highly interesting and wonderful link to Choueiri's work.....truly amazing and I do hope others will give a listen. I listened to the "Headphone" link since everyone else in the house is asleep! What sound, eh? Simply exquisite when one hears what really IS.....!!!
 
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Fishead, I encourage you to try out the Ambiophonic DSP, if you ever decide on listening to digital. For now, I envy your set up. I'm currently stuck in the digital domain being reliant on the software. That said, I'm impressed with the results.

Experimenting with the new monitors, I think that they work very well with the DSP. An immersive 120 degree soundstage from two speakers pointed straight at you, is a pretty amazing illusion. When I first heard a great soundstage (PSB Stratus Gold i) I was pretty amazed. These monitors pull off the same trick and they kinda kick some butt as ambio speakers too.

I don't know if I would ever give up on standard triangle shaped 2-ch setups, but those are easy to create, and this is weird territory that begs exploring. I've unpacked again and am going out onto these horizons with renewed vigor. Safe travels, fellow audionots.
 
Hello Fishead,

This is my first post. I joined this forum to look for members using ambiophonics in their system.

I have been experimenting ambiophonics since the early 2000s (by using mattress between the two speakers) and now using the hardware DSP with the SoundLab speakers. The speakers are almost touching each other as can been seen in my avatar.

I am not clear about your arrangement as mentioned in your first post. The only way for ambiophonics to work is by eliminating the crosstalk. It can be done by physically isolating the left and right speakers or using the RACE DSP to eliminate the crosstalk.

It takes a while to get the settings correct but you should get a good 150 to 180 degrees with two speakers soundstage.

Cheers!
 
David Hafler developed his "Dynaquad," & "Quadaptor" devices as a means of getting greater ambience from 2-channel sources. I've got the Quadaptor and it really works well. The stage is wider than the speakers and there is a greater fullness to the sound. This is not a "gimmicky" kind of thing. Depending on the number and placement of microphones used during recording, there is additional sonic information within the recording that can be accessed. This is what the "Hafler circuit" does: it extracts this additional sonic info from the 2-channel recording and sends it to the rear speakers.

If you've not tried this... or at least listened to a sound system that has this feature, you may wish to try it.
 
I've been listening to 4 identical speakers on a stereo amplifer (from A and B) since last year.

I place them to receive all the soundstage to my listening position
(2 front and two rear equally spaced.),it's like listening to music through headphone but with the space and echo of a room.

Is this in the same logic of ambiophonic with dsp?

this thread got me curious about this technology.
 
I've been listening to 4 identical speakers on a stereo amplifer (from A and B) since last year.

I place them to receive all the soundstage to my listening position
(2 front and two rear equally spaced.),it's like listening to music through headphone but with the space and echo of a room.

Is this in the same logic of ambiophonic with dsp?

this thread got me curious about this technology.


I think your setting is more like car stereo setup. Ambiophonics will give you a more realistic 3D sound.
 
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Ok,but what's the big difference beside placement?

Of course my setup of 4 identical speakers is not cheap speaker and amplifier....

i run 4 high end speakers on a high end power amplifier...
then to tube preamp then to tube phono than to my turntable...

to me it is 3d right now...

i place the speaker to form a triangle like in a 2 channnel but i repeat that twice until i obtain the perfect balance and 3d sound...

seem to me like the same kinda logic....
 
....
i place the speaker to form a triangle like in a 2 channnel but i repeat that twice until i obtain the perfect balance and 3d sound.....

Quoting R Miller..."In essence, one crucial difference between Ambiophonics and stereophonics is the elimination of the acoustic crosstalk, comb filtering and pinna direction finding errors introduced when two channel recordings such as CDs, LPs, or 5.1 DVD/SACDs (all essentially free of such errors as pressed) are reproduced using speakers that form an equilateral triangle with the listener. So doing away with such stereo crosstalk is essential to achieving high fidelity sound reproduction"


I am using what should be better than average equipment and once you setup properly, you would never go back to stereo setup. I was reluctant to use the DSP and was experimenting with a thick mattress in between the speakers. Having convinced of the tremendous potential of Ambiophonics I finally adopted the DSP version about 5 years ago and never looked back since.


I use decent equipment as well. Started experimenting Ambiophonics i with Classe Pre and Power and Theta transport and DAC and Harbeth SHL5. And now , Marantz SA11s2, Mytek DSD DAC, Supratek Chardonnay Pre Amp, Classe Amp and Sound Lab speakers ( can be seen in my avatar).

The huge difference is that I no longer fancy for HiRez formats. The good ole CD sounds better with more details than you can ever get from stereophonics setup.

Try a simple experiment:-

Listen to your favourite classical recording using a lap top or desktop. Just play it normally (stereo). Move the speakers closer to form a 20 degrees separation. Put a cushion in between the speakers and extending near your face (preferably touching your nose). You will be amazed. The soundstage should extend about 120 to 150 degrees and you could sense more depth and clarity.

Try it!
 
Hey guys ! (or should I re-phrase) hey folks ! (not to exclude the gals) - I've spent 2019 researching & implementing Ambiophonics, with complete success. The results are nothing short of thrilling.
The information is all on Ralph Glasgal 's website = Ambiophonics.org, so I suggest this site be used as a guide. If you're really serious, buy the 2nd edition of his book - available there. ( authored by Ralph Glasgal & Keith Yates )
I will share my conclusions, but this is simply a summary of what I've learned:

!) Stereo playback is flawed...it's that simple. The flaw is not with the 2 channel recordings, (thank God) Rather the flaw is with the method of playback...STEREO is only one method of 2 ch playback, Ambiophonics is also a method of playback for 2 ch recordings. Ambio playback works, plain stereo does not and can never work - EVER !
Think of Ambio as a method that corrects Stereo's inherent flaw.

2) There are TWO ways of correcting Stereo playback
a) Prevent the crosstalk from ever occurring....a physical barrier or wall placed between the speaker pair, extending toward the listener can do this, Not to glamorous, but 100 % effective.
b) Eliminate the crosstalk - Employ software/processing to cancel the existing crosstalk that the stereo method of playback contains. MiniDSP can do this VERY complex canceling with RACE - ( look it up). Ralph Glasgal wrote the original equations (1969) that allow RACE to work.
When you get RACE dialed-in. it to is 100% effective at eliminating Stereo's Flaw ( crosstalk).
 
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