Sonus Gold Blue High Freq roll off?

MichaelC

Member
I recently acquired a new TT (KD-750) and it came with a Sonus Gold Blue cart. This is a High Compliance MM cart that was said to rival the best Shure V15’s in its day. The cart may be as old as the TT, however on the whole, sounds pretty good. What I have found, though, is it seems to be soft on the high frequencies. I have read others who commented about this with the Sonus and was wondering if this is characteristic of the Gold Blue? I have also read the suspension didn’t age well – is this high freq. roll off what happens when things stiffen up with age?

Playing a Test Record confirmed all is setup correctly, etc. and really didn’t pick up anything that might be wrong, etc. I may need to listen to it more critically one more time – don’t know? So, I’m wondering what I am hearing is simply age – an old cart, the stylus worn or the way this cart is supposed to sound? How do I tell? Unfortunately, Sonus Gold Blue replacement stylus’s are unobtainium these days and given the rap of them not aging well, I don’t know if investing in a new stylus would be of any benefit?

If anybody has any experience with this, please post. Thanks!
 
Nice table!

Yes, it's your worst fears come true-- that old Sonus has got the Too-Old No-Treble Bad-Suspension disease. Probably mud chiggers in the cantilever too. You just pack that old disaster carefully and send it to me.

Seriously, we'd need to know a couple of things before we can help. What cartridge are you comparing the sound of the Sonus to (and have you used that cartridge in the 750's arm?), and have you got the owner's manual?
 
Hi, nice table. I've never owned a Sonus Blue/Gold but I've heard a few. It's a very high compliance cart - 50cu, and I usually saw them on Black Widow arms. That's not to say you can't get good results with your arm. What you're describing is a worn stylus. It's been my experience that stiff suspensions loosen up in around 5 hrs or less. The rubber parts rarely age badly and need replacing. Even 30 yr old carts will normally have good rubber parts. Maybe it just needs a few hrs playing time? I think one of these styli will fit your body. You'll have to check.
http://www.zum-shop.de/Needles-Styli-Original-Needles-Styli-Sonus_c10-13-303_x1.htm

The one for 98 Euros is a shibata. If it fits your cart, I think it would be a good investment even if you decide to sell it. Maybe someone has one of these and can advise you about the cart. Good luck.
 
I owned the Blue new in a Transcriptors Vestigal on a Thorens TD 125. No high frequency rolloff at all. I replaced a V15 Type III with the Blue and the Sonus was like opening a door- huge difference.
 
I too owned Gold Blues back in the day and I do today.

The GB used a line-contact stylus and tracked light, so I don't think it's as likely that his stylus is worn so badly that it can't trace high frequencies any more, as it is that his SRA (or VTA) is off, which can of course be cured by raising or lowering the arm, which the owner's manual will show him how to do.
 
Thanks guys. The TT has probably sat for a few years unused to be honest. I may simply need to play it a little more. The Sonus did come with both a Blue and Black Stylus and I'm not "hearing" too much of a difference between the two. Unfortunately, I don't have another cart to compare against, though I am starting my search if for no other reason than to try something different. I think I'll also hook it up to my Yammy system instead of the Sansui 9090db - see if maybe it's the Sansui's phono amp playing up?

I had found the link mentioned above at Zum-shop and these might work, though they are green and red variants. I am going to have to educate myself on the differences between those and the blue. Again, thanks for the input.
 
Wualta - I have tried adjusting the VTA with no discernable difference. The instructions with the Sonus want a flat arm parallel to the surface of the platter. I have been able to achieve this and varied it somewhat (up and down) as I too had thought the VTA may be off a little.

I think I should clarify that the treble frequencies are present, however simply "soft". It's not a "bright" sound I'm hearing from the cart. Unfortunately, I don't have a reference to judge against and will probably have to wait until I get either a replacement stylus or another cart all together (it's always nice to have two!).
 
I'm currently running an old Blue Gold, though mine was recently purchased as NOS. i wouldn't neccesarily call mine soft on the highs, but my speakers don't go way up, and my ears fall flat about 17k so its possible stuff is missing and I just don't know it.

Obvious question, but have you given it a good cleaning yet? You may luck out and find thats all it really needs.
 
How about the length of the interconnect cable? If it's too long the increased capacitive load may be what's causing the roll-off.
 
Also check the stylus for gunk buildup. More that once I had to get out a magnifying glass and stylus cleaner.
 
I recently acquired a Sonus Gold Blue cart. What I have found, though, is it seems to be soft on the high frequencies. I have read others who commented about this with the Sonus and was wondering if this is characteristic of the Gold Blue? I have also read the suspension didn’t age well – is this high freq. roll off what happens when things stiffen up with age?

If anybody has any experience with this, please post. Thanks!


We would like to submit to the forum the results of our years of use and maintenance of the Sonus series cartridges.

MAINTAING YOUR SONUS STR

INTRODUCTION
A review of most of these posts are pretty much right on track. Several other key points also need to be addressed, and in this White Paper, we will examine the main reasons for these losses of high frequencies.

ANOLOG WORLD
We live in a real world. It encompasses all three dimensions, X, Y, and Z. Vinyl records are the real world. Like in any mechanical apparatus, things wear out. We will take them step by step.

MISS ALIGNMENT
One of the most problematic areas in the Sonus is the reduced upper high frequency end with the bodies fitted with an STR, or Shibata type Line Contact diamond. Over time, they become miss aligned due to the aging and stiffing of the rubberized pivot.

Secondly, all STR’s all suffer from*a higher sensitivity to alignment tracking errors over the Arc. The specified frequency range is not the same across the entire platter, that is unless it is used in a tangental, or linear tracking arm.

Aging and degradation occurs in the Sonus slowly, and over time.


OBSERVE DEGRADATION
One of the keys to observing this slow degradation is the loss of the right channel tonal balance. When it becomes obvious that this level is out of balance, then it is time to take action.

LOOK & MAINTAIN
Take the head off the tonearm and look at the tube angle as it my be twisted from due center.

We have found that over time, the rubber ‘Cantilever’ stiffens, and begins to torque the armature tube out of place from true center. The armature assembly is the ‘tube’ which consists of the mount for the diamond / needle and the actual armature magnet mounted behind the pivot point.

With an STR, the alignment into the V groove is absolutely critical. In fact, all stylus types must be properly aligned no mater what type of ‘needle’ you use, including Ellipsoid [Elliptical], Bi Lateral, or even the lesser sensitive, Spherical.

RESTORING ELASTICITY
One trick we would like to share is how we resolved and stopped this aging of the rubberized material.

RESETING THE RUBBER MEMORY
All rubber has a memory. Over time, the original position gets lost.

To reset it, simply remove the the needle assembly from the body and place it (just the armature) into a small cap of Alcohol, for say up to two hours. Overnight is ok, depending on temperature and age of the rubber. This method will restore the rubberized material back to it’s original texture, or elasticity if you wish.

Alignment of the tube can now be done by positioning a small pressure to center the tube back into position. We use a small 1/4” paint brush, and hold it there as the alcohol dries. As the alcohol is drying, slight pressure is applied, and most importantly, you must increase its temperature slightly by breathing on it to loosen and thus expanding the molecules.

Repeat if necessary. Experience shows it might take up to two days to reset its original memory.

If the tube / armature is still not centering, then simply skew the cartridge to the right, looking down from the top, to the angle the tube has been skewed. This is the last resort. You will hear the highs come right back.

Be persistent, and redo all of the above if it still will not center to its original memory.

VERTICAL MISS ALIGNMENT
Along with the most obvious stuck skewing angle by a dried out rubber cantilever, it most certainly occurs in the vertical arena as well.

Picture yourself in a cut away looking into the grooves of the record with the stylus on top of it. You will see two V’s, one on top of each other. The upper V is the stylus. The bottom V is the record.

As in the left / right memory problem, this X axis miss alignment also occurs. This results in the STR not being in equal contact on both sides of the groove.

You will hear a muddled response on one channel.

To correct this, simply torque the needle with precision tweezers with a slight twist to straighten it out. Be careful.


THE ARC
Also make sure that you have the correct ‘Arc’ for your tonearm. The Arc, or circle diameter, is listed in your turntable manual.

We use the Baerwald - Leopold protractor, as modified above to correct for the torqued tube mounts.

SUMMARY
The aging process or deteriorating elasticity of the rubber will remember its last position in both the X and Y dimensions.

Results in loss of High Frequencies.

NOTES
One more note on why these ‘Cantilever’ designs were warm.

The basic principle of transferring the mechanical motion through the rear Cantilever MM, is analogous to that of a Ribbon, or Velocity microphone. Those mics rolled off very smoothly above say, 15kHz, and produced a rich low distortion natural sound.

In the case of Sonus and others, these roll offs occurred just above 20kHz when new, and without correcting or maintaing them, this roll off occurs slowly down to 10kHz over time.

Final note
Maintaing these precision instruments is challenging to be sure. I would rather you trust a jeweler at your side and guide them on how to do it.

At an absolute minimum, just soak the stylus in warm alcohol for about two hours. Repeat this every two months.

OUR END RESULT
We have maintained out original stock of Sonus instruments for over 30 years, all with the original diamonds.

Gene Weed
STUDIO 57A*
 
In Memory

We would like to submit to the forum the results of our years of use and maintenance of the Sonus series cartridges.

MAINTAING YOUR SONUS STR

INTRODUCTION
A review of most of these posts are pretty much right on track. Several other key points also need to be addressed, and in this White Paper, we will examine the main reasons for these losses of high frequencies.

ANOLOG WORLD
We live in a real world. It encompasses all three dimensions, X, Y, and Z. Vinyl records are the real world. Like in any mechanical apparatus, things wear out. We will take them step by step.

MISS ALIGNMENT
One of the most problematic areas in the Sonus is the reduced upper high frequency end with the bodies fitted with an STR, or Shibata type Line Contact diamond. Over time, they become miss aligned due to the aging and stiffing of the rubberized pivot.

Secondly, all STR’s all suffer from*a higher sensitivity to alignment tracking errors over the Arc. The specified frequency range is not the same across the entire platter, that is unless it is used in a tangental, or linear tracking arm.

Aging and degradation occurs in the Sonus slowly, and over time.


OBSERVE DEGRADATION
One of the keys to observing this slow degradation is the loss of the right channel tonal balance. When it becomes obvious that this level is out of balance, then it is time to take action.

LOOK & MAINTAIN
Take the head off the tonearm and look at the tube angle as it my be twisted from due center.

We have found that over time, the rubber ‘Cantilever’ stiffens, and begins to torque the armature tube out of place from true center. The armature assembly is the ‘tube’ which consists of the mount for the diamond / needle and the actual armature magnet mounted behind the pivot point.

With an STR, the alignment into the V groove is absolutely critical. In fact, all stylus types must be properly aligned no mater what type of ‘needle’ you use, including Ellipsoid [Elliptical], Bi Lateral, or even the lesser sensitive, Spherical.

RESTORING ELASTICITY
One trick we would like to share is how we resolved and stopped this aging of the rubberized material.

RESETING THE RUBBER MEMORY
All rubber has a memory. Over time, the original position gets lost.

To reset it, simply remove the the needle assembly from the body and place it (just the armature) into a small cap of Alcohol, for say up to two hours. Overnight is ok, depending on temperature and age of the rubber. This method will restore the rubberized material back to it’s original texture, or elasticity if you wish.

Alignment of the tube can now be done by positioning a small pressure to center the tube back into position. We use a small 1/4” paint brush, and hold it there as the alcohol dries. As the alcohol is drying, slight pressure is applied, and most importantly, you must increase its temperature slightly by breathing on it to loosen and thus expanding the molecules.

Repeat if necessary. Experience shows it might take up to two days to reset its original memory.

If the tube / armature is still not centering, then simply skew the cartridge to the right, looking down from the top, to the angle the tube has been skewed. This is the last resort. You will hear the highs come right back.

Be persistent, and redo all of the above if it still will not center to its original memory.

VERTICAL MISS ALIGNMENT
Along with the most obvious stuck skewing angle by a dried out rubber cantilever, it most certainly occurs in the vertical arena as well.

Picture yourself in a cut away looking into the grooves of the record with the stylus on top of it. You will see two V’s, one on top of each other. The upper V is the stylus. The bottom V is the record.

As in the left / right memory problem, this X axis miss alignment also occurs. This results in the STR not being in equal contact on both sides of the groove.

You will hear a muddled response on one channel.

To correct this, simply torque the needle with precision tweezers with a slight twist to straighten it out. Be careful.


THE ARC
Also make sure that you have the correct ‘Arc’ for your tonearm. The Arc, or circle diameter, is listed in your turntable manual.

We use the Baerwald - Leopold protractor, as modified above to correct for the torqued tube mounts.

SUMMARY
The aging process or deteriorating elasticity of the rubber will remember its last position in both the X and Y dimensions.

Results in loss of High Frequencies.

NOTES
One more note on why these ‘Cantilever’ designs were warm.

The basic principle of transferring the mechanical motion through the rear Cantilever MM, is analogous to that of a Ribbon, or Velocity microphone. Those mics rolled off very smoothly above say, 15kHz, and produced a rich low distortion natural sound.

In the case of Sonus and others, these roll offs occurred just above 20kHz when new, and without correcting or maintaing them, this roll off occurs slowly down to 10kHz over time.

Final note
Maintaing these precision instruments is challenging to be sure. I would rather you trust a jeweler at your side and guide them on how to do it.

At an absolute minimum, just soak the stylus in warm alcohol for about two hours. Repeat this every two months.

OUR END RESULT
We have maintained out original stock of Sonus instruments for over 30 years, all with the original diamonds.

Gene Weed
STUDIO 57A*


In memory of my first boss, the late Dr. Peter Ernest Pritchard.

Gene Weed
General Electric Broadcasting
General Electric R&D, Schenectady, NY
STUDIO 57A
---
Yes, I was the one who actually designed this instrument along with Ernie, and Dr Ernst Alexanderson, the real inventor of radio and television.
 
Make sure the stylus is positioned correctly and seated properly. I love these cartridges, but the stylus installation is a bit tricky. Soft highs were never this fast cartridges problem!
Regards,
Jim
 
Mine sounds great, even though the cantilever is angled off toward the inside groove. And appears now to be anything but "super high compliance". Still tracks great (including warps) at 1.4g and definitely not rolled off on top.

I'm going to have to give the alcohol bath a try. Just the rear of the stylus assembly, not the diamond end... right?
 
I'm curious how this comes out for you Frank. Mine also has the angled cantilever thing. I aligned it as best I could to the cantilever rather than the body but it sounds like its still not quite right to me. I do need to re-check the setup now that the suspension is right on the table though.
 
I also have a NOS Gold Blue that I bought somewhat recently. I have not experienced any of the issues described in this thread. Mine sounds very good and there definitely is no high frequency roll-off.
 
My NOS lately purchased one is fine as well, and now it's even better since I was informed on how to adjust the cueing on my table to deal with the hi VTA that it needed.
 
In memory of my first boss, the late Dr. Peter Ernest Pritchard.

Gene Weed
General Electric Broadcasting
General Electric R&D, Schenectady, NY
STUDIO 57A
---
Yes, I was the one who actually designed this instrument along with Ernie, and Dr Ernst Alexanderson, the real inventor of radio and television.

You will fit in fine here - Nice post, and welcome to AK!
Regards,
Jim
 
In memory of my first boss, the late Dr. Peter Ernest Pritchard.

Gene Weed
General Electric Broadcasting
General Electric R&D, Schenectady, NY
STUDIO 57A
---
Yes, I was the one who actually designed this instrument along with Ernie, and Dr Ernst Alexanderson, the real inventor of radio and television.

Very interesting read. Thanks for posting. When soaking the cantilever, is it OK to submerge the stylus? Would 91% isopropyl alcohol work? The stylus I'm presently using looks and sounds fine, but I have another NOS stylus still in the box and it has never been used. Why would some of these cantilevers twist and sag while others don't? Does it have to do with where and how they were stored?
 
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