technics sl-1600 upgrade question

Hi all,
I Ann going through a phase right now where I am considering upgrading my turntable. I have a mint technics sl-1600 with a Stanton 681EEE (red dot) cart. I enjoy this table and have had no problems. Here's my issue. I have a great Sansui au-d11 amp that I came into ownership of recently. Unfortunately I have two other amps that I am happy with so the Sansui is covered and sitting In my closet. I dont want to sell it but its starting to bug me that this classic is not being used. These fetch good money especially in this condition. Its not the mkII version au-d11. I have been persevering on selling it to fund an upgrade possibly. To my sl-1600. I know KAB has numerous upgrade possibilities for the sl-1200 line but havent heard much about the sl-1600 for upgrades except for rewiring the RCA. jacks and tonearm wiring. I am curious if there is a tonearm upgrade that makes a huge impact...or should I consider selling the sl-1600 & sansui au-d11 and using the cash to buy a whole new table. I have read that there are other tables under 48000-399 bucks that are more musical than the sl-1600. ...I have had the technics for about a year and have the itch to better my listening to vinyl experience....any thoughts on this?

Scott

I suspect that your turntable is the earlier version of the SL-1600 and not the MK2, correct? Although the MK2 can benefit from many of the SL1200 mods, the earlier version can't so you're pretty limited in what you can do beyond rewiring and damping the arm and upgrading the RCA cables.

Another thing you could do is replace the stylus in your Stanton. The "Red Dot" styli are VERY heavy tracking conicals, 5.0 to 7.0 grams as I recall. Any of the ellipticals like the D680, D6800EE and D6800EEE would be a noticeable improvement and would also be gentler on your records. You could also look for Pickering styli for the XV-15 like the D625E, D750E, D1200E or even the D400E. And then there are the line contact "Stereohedrons". These all interchange freely with the Stanton styli.

Now, these original Stanton and Pickering styli are extremely scarce and the scarcity is reflected in the price but you can sometimes get lucky on the auction site. (I have.) There are aftermarket styli, of course, but the cheap ones aren't so good and the good ones aren't so cheap. Still, if you sell the Sansui, you'll have plenty of money to play with.

John

I need to correct myself. The stylus is a red oval. I believe there is a difference.

honestabe316 said:

I need to correct myself. The stylus is a red oval. I believe there is a difference.

Click to expand...

That makes it a heavy tracking 0.4 x 0.7 mil elliptical, 1.5 to 3.0 grams. It's the stylus that was intended for the 680 SE "Disco Series" cartridge.

John

So.....if I obtained a stylus more intended for this cart, What would be the observable sound difference and the non observable physical difference? I am a novice in this area...also what forum could I ask the value of the stylus I have now? I think I could sell or trade it for a stylus that would better suit my cart.....do you think my cart with the proper stylus would be a in the top choices for this sl-1600?

Scott

honestabe316 said:

So.....if I obtained a stylus more intended for this cart, What would be the observable sound difference and the non observable physical difference? I am a novice in this area...also what forum could I ask the value of the stylus I have now? I think I could sell or trade it for a stylus that would better suit my cart.....do you think my cart with the proper stylus would be a in the top choices for this sl-1600?

Scott

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Honestly, the stylus you currently have is worth very little. It is, after all, a 40 year old used DJ stylus. It's not going to get you very far toward the purchase of a good stylus. Selling it or trading it also would entail your making some sort of statement of condition. That would involve inspecting it under a microscope at around 200x or 300x and require that you actually knew how to assess what you were seeing.

A better stylus will make a noticeable difference in what you hear. There will be a much better tonal balance to the music, more presence and greater detail. It will allow you to hear more of what's on the record presented as it was performed.

For years the Stanton 681EEE Calibration Standard was the industry reference cartridge for both the recording and broadcast industries. There aren't many cartridges you could buy that would be better and none that you could buy for the price of a new stylus.

And speaking of styli, there are two that I would recommend for your consideration. One is the Vivid Line stylus sold by LP Gear and the other is the JICO Shibata. Either would be a big improvement over what you have.

John

No tonearm upgrades possible without major modifications if even that can be done. No tonearm swaps doable for automatics. Upgrade the interconnects and treat yourself to a nice cartridge.

Thank you John...those two stylish are vastly different in their price. I will read some reviews and see if the japanese stylus is that much better than the lp gear stylus. I think ill upgrade the stylus and get the interconnects changed to higher quality ones. I listen to classic rock and jazz fusion mostly so this table will probably suffice until I get the cash for a vpi...its not like I am unhappy with my sl-1600. ..im just in the upgrade mode......im happy with my amp (proton d1200) preamp (yamaha cx-2), and alon 1 speakers. ...I feel the technics id the logical piece to make better....I can probably do this without selling the sansui.....I think ill keep it on Craig's list and see what trades may come along. Recently there were several au-d11's listed on the bay and they flew out quick for good prices. What tables in the 800 dollar range would you recommend as a good step up from the 1600 for my future possibilities?

Scott

Again, im a novice witb the vinyl scene. My last table was a fisher rack system in the 70's....this technics is my first venture back into vinyl in 30 years....im playing catch up if you will and trying to make up for lost time....

honestabe316 said:

Thank you John...those two stylish are vastly different in their price. I will read some reviews and see if the japanese stylus is that much better than the lp gear stylus. I think ill upgrade the stylus and get the interconnects changed to higher quality ones. I listen to classic rock and jazz fusion mostly so this table will probably suffice until I get the cash for a vpi...its not like I am unhappy with my sl-1600. ..im just in the upgrade mode......im happy with my amp (proton d1200) preamp (yamaha cx-2), and alon 1 speakers. ...I feel the technics id the logical piece to make better....I can probably do this without selling the sansui.....I think ill keep it on Craig's list and see what trades may come along. Recently there were several au-d11's listed on the bay and they flew out quick for good prices. What tables in the 800 dollar range would you recommend as a good step up from the 1600 for my future possibilities?

Scott

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I guess the tables to consider would be the Clearaudio Concept (over your budget) or the Music Hall MF-5.1 for a new table. Honestly, though, I'm not the one to ask about the new "entry level audiophile" stuff. I'm quite happy with vintage tables.

By the way, the LP Gear Vivid line is Japanese too. We don't really know who makes it, maybe Namiki. All LP Gear will say is that it isn't JICO.

John

Keep the turntable you have. The SL-1600 is better than most of the newer turntables out there. Best way to upgrade the sound is a better cartridge/stylus.

I think I have much to learn in this hobby....tt's are the hardest part of a hifi system to get a solid understanding of...I need. To read a lot more.....thanks again john..you have given me some insight...a freind has been telling me about aDenon DP-3000 Turntable with an SAEC WE-308* Tonearm*that been modified. Its in my price range but I don't feel confident enough to make these decisions yet.....AK is a great place to learn.

Scott

I have the same table as you. The two best-sounding cartridges I have for it are a Grado G1 (like a current Gold) with 8MZ stylus and a Shure M97HE with original hyperelliptical stylus. To get performance similar to the latter you could buy a used M97 body or a new M97xE cart, then get a Jico hyperelliptical or SAS stylus for it.

I can't give you advice about your Stanton cart, but rest assured that the SL-1600 can extract great sound from fairly sophisticated carts like I describe above.

I have a 1600 also and think it's a very nice TT , rca cables have been replaced , that is the only up grade done to the table . I have had a Grado Gold on it and that cartridge sounds excellent with it , also a Audio Technica AT14SA is a very nice one but you will have to hunt for a deal on that one , another set up that sounds really nice which is on it now is a Stanton Gold 500 with a NOS D71EE stylus , that would probably be the most affordable of the bunch .

This is a picture of my stylus...red oval. I have tried to look for other images and detailed info on it but cant find any other info besides what was given in this thread. Does anyone know tge the product model number? Im interested in reading a little more about this stylus.

Thanks

Scott

I think it's a D6800SE.

John

The shibata stylus you recommended (jico)is twice the cost of the one from lp gear. Its says its quadrophonic. Does that mean it will sound better on quadrophonic lp's ? I know this may be a newbie question. Do you think the shibata would be that much better than the other? I know diminishing returns are a part of the equation. Lastly, im assuming you dont just plug n play and there is probably an alignment necessary. Is aligning a stylus to cart something that can be done by a non experienced person?

Scott

I would def. keep the 1600 and try out cart and or stylus options before dropping allot of money on a new TT. I would not upgrade until I saved up $1k for said TT either and had the rest of the gears in place like speakers, phono pre, cart, headphones etc. in place as well. You most likely will not hear much of an upgrade till you hit that 1k level and just adding the TT and leaving everything else the same will most likely result in only a subtle change. Like a laptop in a digital setup you don't need anything super stupendous TT wise to get great sound. What little talk I see of what the best sounding laptop is it seems to come back to the 2010 mac mini which is around $400, nothing uber expensive.

It seems to me that only Linn and uber dac owners seem to argue this and while I think they took one too many hits from the deep end of the tray everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What I think is the much bigger matter is what kind of speakers and/or headphones are you using? To me you want to go around a 10:1 ratio for speakers for the cartridge and around 2:1 ratio for headphones. Headphones do sound much more preferable to me but they are missing the drama and soundstage of speakers so I think 2:1 is about right. Example: Spend $1000 on your speakers, spend $100 on your cart. Spend $1000 on your headphones, spend $500 on your cart. Your amps play a role in this, but that's a very personal thing. I would not spend over cart wise than what the tonearm and TT are worth together. At that point I think you need to start saving for an upgrade if you want to take things further.

What matters as much as the TT itself is the tonearm and this affects the cartridge way more than the TT part. You def want to have the weight and compliance correct on this and make sure your phono pre or receiver work well for your cart as well, this is just as important as the arm. Making sure the cart is aligned properly is the third and last step.

So how far can you take it with your 1600? IMO. if it is the early ver. and in good working order I'd say it's worth $200 and the mk2 ver. $300. Does not sound like allot but it's still worth a $200 cart, $2k speakers and/or $400 headphones...not too shabby.

honestabe316 said:

The shibata stylus you recommended (jico)is twice the cost of the one from lp gear. Its says its quadrophonic. Does that mean it will sound better on quadrophonic lp's ? I know this may be a newbie question. Do you think the shibata would be that much better than the other? I know diminishing returns are a part of the equation. Lastly, im assuming you dont just plug n play and there is probably an alignment necessary. Is aligning a stylus to cart something that can be done by a non experienced person?

Scott

Click to expand...

If you have the proper headshell get the technics overhang gauge. Very easy to use and cheap. It can be found at kabusa or ebay. Some headshells like the lp gear zupreme will not work though.

honestabe316 said:

The shibata stylus you recommended (jico)is twice the cost of the one from lp gear. Its says its quadrophonic. Does that mean it will sound better on quadrophonic lp's ? I know this may be a newbie question. Do you think the shibata would be that much better than the other? I know diminishing returns are a part of the equation. Lastly, im assuming you dont just plug n play and there is probably an alignment necessary. Is aligning a stylus to cart something that can be done by a non experienced person?

Scott

Click to expand...

The Shibata stylus profile was developed for quad recordings, and are necessary for listening to 4 channel records, but they're appropriate for stereo recordings too. In fact, it's one of the best stylus profiles for stereo. A number of my favorites are Shibatas or other types of "line contact" styli. They offer better resolution and detail than more conventional designs.

I hesitate to offer an opinion regarding which of the two styli I suggested is the better one. Reports here are generally positive for both and I believe that either would represent an improvement over your D6800SE. I guess I'd probably get the Vivid Line on the theory that I wouldn't like the JICO twice as much.

By the way, if you get either of these, switch the brush for the one on the D6800SE. The aftermarket brushes tend to be noisy. They're just nylon bristles and, unless I'm mistaken, the originals are horse hair.

John