Is Songwriting Obsolete?

SA-708 said:

I've got no problem with "three chords and the truth" even though I think I count four chords, including a minor. Simplicity can be a good thing when done well, and is nothing new. I don't think James Brown's "Sex Machine" changed chords until he "took it to the bridge." Now Sigue Sigue Sputnik's debut album, which only used F, C and G for every bloody song, was taking it far too far, which I guess was their point after all.

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Indeed, simplicity can be a wonderful thing. I was thinking about doing a thread about great one-chord songs, like "Chain of Fools", or songs with only one (but a very meaningful) chord change, like" LA Woman".

As Lou Reed said, "If it has more than three chords, it's jazz." Not really my view, but apropos to the subject at hand.

noogies said:

Would like to respond, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Got any examples?

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I was simply referring to the fact that one of the main ways people listen to music these days is via some streaming service and (often) a portable device. Streaming ruins segues by inserting pauses between songs. It was just an idle thought; I don't believe it affects the way music is written and recorded - at least not thus far. However, could it eventually if (as?) streaming becomes the way we almost all get music? Will someone eventually fix streaming service's segue-killing glitch?

Mostly I feel that this topic is a reach, in the first place. I think songs are written as they always have been; introducing the segue problem as a possible factor in song-writing was me reaching with this topic. [Surely I don't need to list a bunch of albums that use the segue - you could quickly make such as list yourself, there are so many.]

You're probably right.

Template for atleast 80% of all dubstep of 2014

Intro-buildup-drop/main(8 bars)-main/pattern change(8 bars)-cease-rebuild-drop/main(8 bars)-main/pattern change(8 bars)-outro.

Template for Another Day(Xkore Remix) in 2012!

intro-buildup-drop/main(8 bars)-main/key/pattern change(8 bars)-breakdown-buildup-drop/changed(8 bars-main/pattern rechanged(8 bars)-breakdown-buildup-drop/TEMPO and pattern change(16 bars)-drop/TEMPO again changes(16 bars)-main/pattern change-outro.

Not all music is simple. Song writing is more alive than its ever been.
Mainstream just sucks!

EDM master race!

Radio was always about selling music. The formula of several choruses was to ensure that if somebody tuned in halfway through a song they would catch the hook. With the advent of Youtube and Itunes sampling, it's become important to place the hook in the beginning of the song since most people only listen to the first 30 seconds online.

"Happy" is a brilliant pop song and his 24 hour video is revolutionizing the industry.

musichal said:

On the other hand, I believe technology can certainly impact art. Here's what I wonder, for instance...

With all the music streaming by which many people 'consume' music, and with streaming's by-product of killing the artful and sometimes dramatic segue by pause insertion, will we see songwriters use the technique less and less? My own anecdotal experience of current/recent songs seems to suggest that the segue remains one of many of the songwriter/composer's tools in the art box. Hopefully, technologically this factor will be rendered moot by folks who care enough to fix the problem. (Anybody remember how several early models of CD players had this same problem?)

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Bingo.

noogies said:

... can anybody write a pop tune any more?

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Yes, there are lots of pop tunes being written.

noogies said:

What I mean is, does anyone still write using the traditional intro-verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus kind of structure?

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Yes, but usually simpler, like verse-verse-chorus-verse, verse-verse-chorus-verse, maybe with an intro or coda or solo thrown in.

noogies said:

Most of the new songs I hear seem to rely on playing a groove or vamp over and over again, ad infinitum. ... is this a good thing?

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For my tastes, no, but obviously a lot of other people do like it.

One thing I noticed about this thread is that a lot of people seem to be conflating performers, or specific performances or recordings, with songwriters. Yes, many performances are of songs that were written by the performers, but the performers and songwriters are not necessarily the same.

I think that the best times for popular song WRITERS were from the mid 1930s through the mid 1960s. Lots of good pop songs written by songwriters, and then recorded by a wide variety of performers. Gradually, starting in the late 1950s, it became more and more common for the performers to write their own songs, or for songwriters to become performers. Some of them manage do well at both writing and performing, but since it's more difficult for most people to truly excel at both, there aren't as many great songs being written, or at least, not as many of them being performed and recorded.

poppachubby said:

Radio was always about selling music. The formula of several choruses was to ensure that if somebody tuned in halfway through a song they would catch the hook. With the advent of Youtube and Itunes sampling, it's become important to place the hook in the beginning of the song since most people only listen to the first 30 seconds online.

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THIS is a good point.

fips152 said:

One thing I noticed about this thread is that a lot of people seem to be conflating performers, or specific performances or recordings, with songwriters. Yes, many performances are of songs that were written by the performers, but the performers and songwriters are not necessarily the same.

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I agree, a lot of people seem to be of a mind that if a song is well-performed or contains good performances, that makes it a well-written song. Like, "Oh, I love Angus Young's guitar on 'Back in Black.' I rank that tune right up there with 'Stardust.' "

What I'm trying to get at is the structure of the song: a good performance can enliven a dull tune or make a bad one better, but what if you took that performance and applied it to a song written by somebody who actually has some songwriting chops?

Thread craps cleaned up. Let's stay on track here, folks, please.

Thanks, Rich. Glad you were paying attention.

Here's another good example of what I'm talking about: remember a few years back the song Pumped Up Kicks by Foster the People? Catchy tune and it was ubiquitous for several months around late 2011. Just a single four-chord vamp over and over again. Sure, there's a verse and chorus, but it's all the same rhythm and progression -- the only thing that differentiates them is the lyrics.

Mind you, I heard Werewolves of London for the first time in awhile today, which kind of blows my theory that this method of pop song construction is a recent development. Still makes me feel like having a big dish of beef chow mein every time I hear it, though.

I saw Jason Mraz on "Live from the Artists Den" on PBS over the weekend and fell head over heels. Now I had heard the name and knew he had a radio hit but had never really paid attention before but this show was just fantastic. He played with L.A. based folk band "Raining Jane" 4 women who were fantastic. My point being all the songs he wrote were just great, he's an awesome guitar player and singer so ya, there are still great songwriter/performers out there you just have to look for them.
The last really great singer/songwriter type album I heard was John Mayer's "Room For Squares" which at that point in my life and some personal issues I was dealing with touched me like few records have in a very long time.

This might help clear things up


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ering-music-industry-could-learn-from-tv.html

dudefromla said:

The last really great singer/songwriter type album I heard was John Mayer's "Room For Squares"

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Good example, but for different reasons. Mayer is the most recent singer/songwriter type I can recall who structures his songwriting in a more-or-less traditional manner (IIRC, that is -- I'm listening to John Coltrane right now, which makes it a little difficult to hear any of Mayer's tunes in my head).

I say "different reasons" because I'm not really talking about the emotional impact of his lyrical content or quality of performance. But if I was, he'd get extra points for being a kick-ass guitar player.

try1256 said:

This might help clear things up


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ering-music-industry-could-learn-from-tv.html

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Or not. Again, this seems to address content quality rather than structure. Unless I missed something.

Some good points, though.

noogies said:

Or not. Again, this seems to address content quality rather than structure. Unless I missed something.

Some good points, though.

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I think the content and the structure are connected. A well crafted song has structure and interesting, quality content. Much of what the music industry is pumping out today has neither. Maybe a little structure as many of the new songs are a repetitive drone without much change rhythmicly or harmonically.
Point is, the gatekeepers aren't letting the good stuff through.

try1256 said:

I think the content and the structure are connected. A well crafted song has structure and interesting, quality content. Much of what the music industry is pumping out today has neither. Maybe a little structure as many of the new songs are a repetitive drone without much change rhythmicly or harmonically.
Point is, the gatekeepers aren't letting the good stuff through.

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True.

Just feels mainstream is more casual listening.

Music-afficionado's look elsewere. Is'nt that how is always been?

Most people just arent into music like us audiophiles!

Okay, good point(s) ... and yet ... am I alone in remembering a time when you didn't have to work so hard to find good music? It seems to me that years ago, music was more, I dunno, central to our existence than it is now.

But that's a subject for a different thread, one that's probably already been beaten like a rented mule. More to the point of the current thread, how about this: is good music actually structured differently from bad music?