Modded up Technics SL1200MKII vs. Music Hall 7.1

Meloski

Meloski

Active Member
Over the last six months I've put together what I think is a nice little audio system, a new Jolida tube amp, Lehman phono stage and Martin Logan speakers.

Now I am in the possession of a very stock Technics SL1200MKII it was given to me so I'm only into it for a $90.00 transformer that I replaced a while back. It works great. Well now I'm looking to upgrade the turntable.

Which direction should I go here? Where is my best value for money spent? Where is the better performance?

If I do all the mods I would like to do on the Technics,
Platter mat - 76
Record clamp - 79
Tonearm rewire - 210
Headshell wires - 38
Isonoe feet - 175
Tonearm dampening - 149
Power mod & Strobe disable - 289
Front side bumpers - 8
Canadian paint job - 300

The total not including shipping the table around is $1324.00

Or

I have been eyeballing a Music Hall 7.1 turntable that could be had for $1295.00 Brand new, warrantee, free shipping. I can get $300.00 selling the Technics thus reducing the price of the Music Hall to $995.00

I can use my AT440MLa cartridge on either table.

Which table has the better performance and a better value?
 
Well from this pig's perspective, I wouldn't put that kind of money into a SL 1200. I think the 1200 is a very decent table, but if I were putting sound quality first...that is not the table I would choose. From what I have heard of the 1200 and its sister tables the SP 25 and 15, is a loss of micro level detail and texture. Basically the table sounds dead to me, with none of the subtle nuances that a great recording can contain. Now I know not everyone agrees with me, but that is my experiences with this level of Technics DD table. Now there are those who put some serious mods into the 1200, and I haven't heard the table with an Applied Fidelity bearing, outboard power supply, and other goodies. So it might be possible to change my opinion. But I am going to hold firm with my opinion of the 1200 in stock trim.

Now if I had $1300 to spend I would still be going to the used market. But I would probably be looking for a used

SOTA/VPI/Oracle/Townshend/Nottingham/Mitchell/Basis or something along those lines. There happens to be a very nice Linn LP 12 in our Bartertown but it is without arm.

Another option is a fully hot rodded AR XA from our own AK Marc Morin. I have a feeling that one of Marc's AR would be a smoking table. Heck I even have one on order, so I am talking with my own money so to speak.

At that price point there are a lot of very fine tables from the 90's that have become affordable. If you can get one that is well cared for by a good owner, you can get lots of value for the dollar spent.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Meloski said:
Over the last six months I've put together what I think is a nice little audio system, a new Jolida tube amp, Lehman phono stage and Martin Logan speakers.

Now I am in the possession of a very stock Technics SL1200MKII it was given to me so I'm only into it for a $90.00 transformer that I replaced a while back. It works great. Well now I'm looking to upgrade the turntable.

Which direction should I go here? Where is my best value for money spent? Where is the better performance?

If I do all the mods I would like to do on the Technics,
Platter mat - 76
Record clamp - 79
Tonearm rewire - 210
Headshell wires - 38
Isonoe feet - 175
Tonearm dampening - 149
Power mod & Strobe disable - 289
Front side bumpers - 8
Canadian paint job - 300

The total not including shipping the table around is $1324.00

Or

I have been eyeballing a Music Hall 7.1 turntable that could be had for $1295.00 Brand new, warrantee, free shipping. I can get $300.00 selling the Technics thus reducing the price of the Music Hall to $995.00

I can use my AT440MLa cartridge on either table.

Which table has the better performance and a better value?
Click to expand...

If you could handle $1300 maybe you save up a bit more and look into VPI or Clearaudio?

Really, why spend 289$ on strobe disable, $175 on feet, $300 on paint, and $79 on a clamp? There's $800 back.

To make that table sound better rewire the arm, buy the KAB fluid damping kit, hardwire some nice cables, mount it on a stable space.
 
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I agree with Mister Pig's assessment of the stock SL-1200. However, once properly modded, it's a whole 'nuther story.
From the prices you list it seems like you're having someone else do the work for you. If you could do the work yourself, you'd save hundreds. Possibly enough to fund a modest aftermarket tonearm.
I have done most of the mods you list to my SL-1200, with the exception of the record clamp and Isonoe feet, and it's a very fine sounding deck :music: What exactly is a "Canadian paint job"? I've never heard of that one before.

If you DIY you can do stuff like this.
 

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I agree with the comments above about not modifying the SL1200, but moving it on. It is a decent table, but I found my Technics SL 1200 just as Mister Pig described. I wouldn't put my money into the Music Hall/Pro-ject, but would go for the turntables mentioned plus add a Garrard 401 with SME arm, but you might have to do some DIY with that.
 
Sl1200 with tonearm fluid damper and tonearm rewire plus headshell cardas leads.
You wont need all the extra stuff. These will greatly improve the sound. Amazing you, and you will be happy
 
My opinion is that what You are talking about doing with Technics is mostly cosmetics, it won´t get You far. It´s not possible to change the performance of the 1200 very much with these mods. What we will hear, with any TT, are very complicated interactions of resonances and vibrations and what must be done is more than scraping the surface, with any TT.

Pick a TT that You are perfectly pleased with, after a lot of listening, don´t believe certain common mods will change the character of the TT in question..

I´m a bit surprised that You can pick a candidate without having an experience with it, like the Music Hall. Why would You think You would like that better beforehand? We must realize that we are very seldom talking about objectively better when it comes to TTs, mostly always subjectively better.

Edit: I remember I read a long time ago from Mr Yosh, who has the greatest insight regarding Technics, that it´s not very much use with these trying in improving things, because nearly everything has to be changed in doing so. I understand what he meant, you must in principle nearly change the whole design. Personally I believe that is a valid point for most TTs.
 
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One thing that I always look back is resale value once I put money into something. I don't see the Technics being worth that much if you decided to move up. Move up now. But audition more tables. JMHO :)
 
Mister Pig said:
Well from this pig's perspective, I wouldn't put that kind of money into a SL 1200. I think the 1200 is a very decent table, but if I were putting sound quality first...that is not the table I would choose. From what I have heard of the 1200 and its sister tables the SP 25 and 15, is a loss of micro level detail and texture. Basically the table sounds dead to me, with none of the subtle nuances that a great recording can contain. Now I know not everyone agrees with me, but that is my experiences with this level of Technics DD table. Now there are those who put some serious mods into the 1200, and I haven't heard the table with an Applied Fidelity bearing, outboard power supply, and other goodies. So it might be possible to change my opinion. But I am going to hold firm with my opinion of the 1200 in stock trim.

Now if I had $1300 to spend I would still be going to the used market. But I would probably be looking for a used

SOTA/VPI/Oracle/Townshend/Nottingham/Mitchell/Basis or something along those lines. There happens to be a very nice Linn LP 12 in our Bartertown but it is without arm.

Another option is a fully hot rodded AR XA from our own AK Marc Morin. I have a feeling that one of Marc's AR would be a smoking table. Heck I even have one on order, so I am talking with my own money so to speak. You just have to understand the deck. BTW, mine is from 2007.

At that price point there are a lot of very fine tables from the 90's that have become affordable. If you can get one that is well cared for by a good owner, you can get lots of value for the dollar spent.

Regards
Mister Pig
Click to expand...

Well, you haven't hear mine and you'd be in for a big surprise. There are a couple of tweaks that need to be done to get the micro details out of this deck (or any other deck) and the cost is actually more like pennies rather then big dollars.

'ner
 
WaynerN said:
Well, you haven't hear mine and you'd be in for a big surprise. There are a couple of tweaks that need to be done to get the micro details out of this deck (or any other deck) and the cost is actually more like pennies rather then big dollars.

'ner
Click to expand...



I agree with Wayner. If there's one thing my 1200 is NOT, it's dead-sounding. Far from it. Also, the very inexpensive tweak of strategically placed rubber o-rings around the tonearm made a very audible difference in the sound quality. The o-rings "quiet" the arm, allowing more of the music to come through. The o-ring tweak is NOT snake oil. I tried it and it works. So much so, that I put o-rings on all my other tables (3...two AT tables and a second SL1200). Besides, between the SL1200 and the SP's, you are taking a huge price difference. And good luck finding an SP table in top-notch condition. And if you do find one, be prepared to pay a hefty sum for it.
 
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I recently replaced a 1200mk2 with Kab fluid dampner for a Music Hall 7.1. To me, there is no comparison, the 7.1, in my system sounds way better. Both have similar carts, at 440 and 150mlx. The 7.1 is a more delicate deck and did take some getting used to, but from the minute I set it up and listened for the first time, I knew it was a keeper.
 
I don't know how much better the MMF 7.1 is than the 7, but I sold my 7 (with Speed Box) for a new KAB modded 1200 and much preferred the Techie. Since then, I've added the external power supply and AF bearing making the improvement even greater.
 
I'm in agreement with Mister Pig.

I had a tricked out SL-1200 a few years ago, and it did a lot of things really well, but there are better-sounding options available now for less bread, not the least of which is a marcmorinified AR.
 
OP, what I mean is, there will never be any consensus as why a certain TT would be better than another TT, never. That is why You have to test a TT Yourself in such a way that You know You will be pleased. There is no other way.

What You get might be certain candidates that might be interesting to investigate further. What You like is not possible to predict or have any thoughts on.
 
WaynerN said:
Well, you haven't hear mine and you'd be in for a big surprise. There are a couple of tweaks that need to be done to get the micro details out of this deck (or any other deck) and the cost is actually more like pennies rather then big dollars.

'ner
Click to expand...

I am always open to changing my position. Box it up and drop it in the mail! If we time this right I can have the SP 10 up and running to throw in the mix also.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
brando4905 said:
I recently replaced a 1200mk2 with Kab fluid dampner for a Music Hall 7.1. To me, there is no comparison, the 7.1, in my system sounds way better. Both have similar carts, at 440 and 150mlx. The 7.1 is a more delicate deck and did take some getting used to, but from the minute I set it up and listened for the first time, I knew it was a keeper.
Click to expand...

If the KAB fluid dampener was all that was done to the Techie, I'm not surprised. Basically comparing a SL-1200 to a deck that costs $1,000 more.
 
kermit z said:
One thing that I always look back is resale value once I put money into something. I don't see the Technics being worth that much if you decided to move up. Move up now. But audition more tables. JMHO :)
Click to expand...
These are my feelings, too. To be honest, I doubt you'd recoup any money on the modifications.
 
grottyash said:
These are my feelings, too. To be honest, I doubt you'd recoup any money on the modifications.
Click to expand...

Agree wholeheartedly. It is not very often that modifications generate a 100% return on investment. Now switching out updated parts makes sense, as the original parts might be worn out or aged. and that is what happens with some of the TD 124 tables for instance.

Although some of the idler tables seem to buck this trend. Modifications for the Lenco come to mind for instance.

But for most audio components, owners rarely get back the majority of the cost of the upgrades. Actually a pretty serious cottage industry seems to have crept up from doing this, and not all of the mods are universally hailed as improvements. Different is easy, better not so much<<< I stole that line from another AK'er PIO1980. :D

But if it is going to be a long term keeper, and those mods do improve the sound, then the investment can make sense. There are some big "buts" in those sentences though.

With that being said, there are those who swear by these fully modded 1200 with major player arms and top flight bearings on them. I have never heard one, and they may very well be the cats meow. I personally have a hard time investing that kind of money on a project that I would be uncertain of the outcome on.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Interesting discussion. I was faced with the same decision sort of and went with the full package of mods from KAB on an SL1200MKII and couldn't be happier. I also have a VPI HW19 MkIII with an SME III, but it is in a different house in a different state, so a direct comparison is not possible. But subjectively and ergonomically I like the Technics better. Also, I have a Music Hall and frankly it is not as good as either of these other two and I have an old Mitsubishi EC2 that is very close to as good as the VPI too. For my SL1200, the following cartridges are set up: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Ortofon 2M Black, Audio Technica AT150ANV, Audio Technica 33Mono Anniversary, Stanton 881EEE. One of the things I really like about the SL1200-KAB is the ease of cartridge change and one of things I like about the KAB mods is that with the arm being re-wired with Cardas and damped both internally and externally, all of the above cartridges are compatible and sound great.
 
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