Change in Volume

The other day I had made a recording of an album on one side and another album on the other side but this time used a different recorder, a Pioneer RT-707. The first side was from a Teac A-4300 which has VU meters and I set it accordingly. The Pioneer had db meters and I tried to keep it just shy of getting in the red which it did sometimes anyway.

When I played both back to check how they sounded, the album I taped from the 4300 was much louder in volume while being played on the Pioneer deck...much louder like the db meter needles were pegging out quite a bit. I may have to play that side on the Teac deck it seems. I wouldn't think it's good for the needles to be pegging out on the Pioneer deck constantly.

MY A4300 has switchable metering. Does yours? Was it on the NORM scale?

"I wouldn't think it's good for the needles to be pegging out on the Pioneer deck constantly."

I'd agree with this.

I'm not sure what you mean by switchable metering. Take that back. It just occurred to be that it was set on High due to the tape I was recording to.

full scale on mine will read "+3" or "+6" depending on the switch.
If U R recording and don't notice UR on the high range, the occasional "+1.5 to 2" would actually be +4.5 to 5.
I do not know how dB converts to Vu. My understanding is the ballistics can also be different (fast, peak reading vs. slower averaging reading.)
I presume the 707 meters are not affected by an output pot.

p.s.KLIPSHman - I really miss my Quartets!!

There is an output on the RT-707 in the back. You set it once and forget it. Due to the low noise high output tapes I use like Maxell UD, XLI or RMGI tapes, on the 4300 I always use High and it sounds great on that machine.

However, as mentioned, if I take that tape and play it on the RT-707 the volume goes up and the needles swing way past +3 and peg out a lot. I'm trying to figure out the best way to record from that 4300 if I want to use it for that, and not get the scenario I mentioned playing it on the RT-707.

On the other side of the coin, if I record with the 707 and play it on either the 4300 or X-10R I have to crank the volume up...opposite problem.

Due to the low noise high output tapes I use like Maxell UD, XLI or RMGI tapes, on the 4300 I always use High and it sounds great on that machine.

try using Norm & keep to "0Vu" and give a good critical listen... You may be surprised:thmbsp:

Don't forget that the output volume control on the 4300 will effect the meter level readings during recording. If the output level is set too low while you are recording and you crank up the record level to get the meters to read at the proper level the recording will be way too hot. The output level must be set at the 3:00 position and the meter switches set to normal when recording or the recording levels will be all wrong. Read the operating manual for the 4300, it's mentioned in there somewhere.

Actually, the output is set between 2-3:00 o'clock but according to the tapes used I always set to High instead of Normal. I think Normal is for older tapes like Adura or some Ampex and BASF tapes. I primarily use Maxell or RMGI.

I need to find a correlation between VU and db meters and set accordingly since the tapes would be played on any deck be it Teac or Pioneer.

The one negative aspect about the Pioneer deck is you have to put sensor tape on the magnetic side and it's going to run right across the heads. That makes no sense from a design standpoint. I don't know why they didn't put that sensor post below instead of up above the tape.

If you wanted to play a tape recorded from that machine and had the sensor tape where it will trigger auto reverse, it's not going to work on a Teac and those heads will get rubbed by the sensor tape.

audiojones said:

Don't forget that the output volume control on the 4300 will effect the meter level readings during recording.

Click to expand...

This didn't sound right, so before responding to this, I sent 1k tone to the inputs of my 4300. The OUTPUT pots Do Not effect the meter levels when in RECORD. They DO effect the output LEVEL though - just not through the meters.

eddisc said:

This didn't sound right, so before responding to this, I sent 1k tone to the inputs of my 4300. The OUTPUT pots Do Not effect the meter levels when in RECORD. They DO effect the output LEVEL though - just not through the meters.

Click to expand...

Yes they most certainly do affect the meter levels whether the machine is in record mode or not whenever the tape / source selector is in the tape position (as it should be when recording with a three head machine). When recording (with the tape actually rolling and of course the selectors set to monitor the recording) the output pots and meter selector switches must be set at the proper level as specified in the manual. If you try to compensate for low output volume setting by increasing the record volume you will make a recording that is far too hot.

A few minutes ago I looked at the 4300 to see where I had set the Output level. It was not quite on 2 o'clock. I took that same tape that was so pegging the meters out on the Pioneer deck and turned down the back output level to nearly off and it did not affect the meter needles at all.

Page 6 in the Pioneer manual says "the output level switches in the back have a center click position where the standard output level(450mV with 0db display on the level meters)of a standard tape can be obtained".

Does that sound high? I don't know what they're calling a standard tape. I use Maxell UD or RGMI mostly. They were set to one click back of center when I i taped the other day so, a mite less than center. I don't know what the rating is for the Teac...maybe 180mV?

The output level on the RT-707 does not affect the levels reflected on it's meters, but it does on the TEAC. I find that the 2:00 position on the TEAC is too low and as such if you compensate the recording volume for that setting it tends to make recordings that are too hot when played back on other machines that have fixed playback levels. I usually keep the output levels on all of my TEAC machines set at around 3:00~3:30 when recording a tape (meter sensitivity at normal for the A-4300SX and A-6300) and that puts the levels right where they should be for all of the other decks around here that the tapes get played on. It would have been nice if TEAC had put a little detent or marker on the output level knob to prevent all the recording volume fuss (they did on later versions).

The 4300 Output switch effects the needle movement and can be changed during playback-not so with the 707. I tried that and it had no effect on the meter needle movement for whatever the reason. Turned all the way down I still couldn't get the needle movement from pegging out when the tape recorded on the 4300 was played on it. It was definitely too hot for the 707.

I would have thought changing the Output on the 707 would have compensated for the hot tape, it doesn't. I've always used the meter sensitivity at the High position on the 4300 as the manual recommends with low noise tape.

One caveat. I would think the output level on the 4300 should be less than 2 0'clock since that's way too hot for playing on anything but Teac decks.

Ok, one more time - when recording a tape on the A-4300 the output volume should be set to about 3:00~3:30 position. Then when you compensate the recording volume level for that output level setting it will give you the proper results when you play the tape back on machines other than your TEAC. Don't lower the output volume and set the meters on high then try to compensate for those settings with the record volume or you are going to make matters even worse and end up with a recording that is FAR TOO HOT when it is played back on other machines with fixed playback meter levels (like your RT-707). Again I'm sorry but I just don't know how else to state this that can make it any clearer.

Set the output level on your TEAC at 3:00 or 3:30, set the meter switches at normal and make a recording while monitoring the tape being recorded. Set the record levels to their proper settings as reflected by the meters while monitoring the tape. Now play that tape back on the RT-707 and see if the levels are right about where they should be - they should be just about right. I know the TEAC A-4300SX manual says to set output level at around the 2:00 position but that is more of a starting point. Experience of playing tapes recorded on many examples of this machine on many other brands of machines points more towards the 3:00~3:30 position being closer to correct without driving the average machine into the red.

I hear what you're saying but for what purpose are the two Line output level switches in back of the 707 deck? On playback turning them in either direction does nothing. They should control the output level.

Do a test recording on the 4300. If you choose the high position, the 0 db point is located about a third of the scale on the VU meter. If you look at the VU meters, you'll see that the high position reference is on the upper portion of the meter and the normal position setting is referenced from the bottom. If you are using the high setting and the VU needle hits the 0 db at about 2 thirds of the scale, then you are recording 3db hotter and this is most likely why it pegs on the Pioneer deck.

Or, move the switch to the normal position and then you'll use the 0 db mark at about the 2/3rds point which will allow for more deflection for the needles during a recording.

Use the input level knob only to set the proper level. Play around a bit and see what kind of results you get.

Any way, try doing a test recording and see how it works on the Pioneer.

Klipshman said:

The other day I had made a recording of an album on one side and another album on the other side but this time used a different recorder, a Pioneer RT-707. The first side was from a Teac A-4300 which has VU meters and I set it accordingly. The Pioneer had db meters and I tried to keep it just shy of getting in the red which it did sometimes anyway.

When I played both back to check how they sounded, the album I taped from the 4300 was much louder in volume while being played on the Pioneer deck...much louder like the db meter needles were pegging out quite a bit. I may have to play that side on the Teac deck it seems. I wouldn't think it's good for the needles to be pegging out on the Pioneer deck constantly.

Click to expand...

The Pioneer has VU meters, they're just opposing each other vs. side by side.

Klipshman said:

I hear what you're saying but for what purpose are the two Line output level switches in back of the 707 deck? On playback turning them in either direction does nothing. They should control the output level.

Click to expand...

Oh, those are just for matching the output level of your RT-707 to the rest of your system. On those decks I usually just set 'em to the point where they click into place. They won't change the meters but they will change the output volume level going to your amp or or receiver. To tell you the truth I kind of wish TEAC had done this the same way, it would cause much less confusion when recording if the output level didn't have an effect on the meters.