Yamaha quality decreasing?
- Thread starter ledzep1968
- Start date
When Sansui and Nakamichi got acquired by Grande Holdings (HQ in Hong Kong) some people thought it was the end of an era for them, with the 1970s and 1980s being the stuff that AK people consider collectible. Yamaha has been good about keeping it together for the most part, they still manufacture their pianos by hand in Japan, the original meaning of Natural Sound.
barchetta_66
New Member
Tough times
Hi,
i´m from Germany and i´m a big Yamaha fan since 26 years.
My first Yammie was the A-720 in 1986. Then followed by a CDX-710, later then CD-2000. In the 90s i could upgrade to my first dream-setup : CX-1000 / MX-1000, CDX-1120, TX-1000, KX-1200. The MX-1000 then was replaced by the famous monster amp 101M which i kept until 2007. CX-1000 was replaced by a CX-10000. The CDX-1120 was replaced by a GT-CD1.
Then, the hometheater moved in with DSP-A1000. Later i regularly upgraded the TOTL AV-Amp from DSP-A2070, DSP-A3090, DSP-A1, DSP-AZ1, DSP-Z9 ( these are called RX in the US ). I missed the Z11 due to high pricing. Right now i have the RX-A3010 since few days.
My favourite stereo setup is actual a set of two MX-D1 class-D power amps connected to the passive controller YPC-1. This dreamteam is feed by a NP-S2000 network player and a separate DAC ( Metrum Octave ).
My comment on the quality issue : i was mentioning all my historic Yamaha stuff to proof my experience to you guys. I guess, from point of overall craftsmenship, nothings comes close to the high end stuff of the late seventies - execpt the centennial edition of 1987. Unfortunately Yamaha decided around 1990 to give up high end level and put focus on entry level hifi in order to grow in terms of sales turnover. You have to understand, this is always a matter of decisions in business strategy, made by few top managers. For sure the golden age of Hi-Fi was over then. Things began to change. That edgy 70s design with loads of switches and VU-meters was mega-out. 90s design was slim and rounded.
In 2003 there was another approach to enter the high end class again. With DSP-Z9 and MX-D1 Yamaha produced some very cool and expensive stuff. The next interesting step was 2007 with the comeback of stereo ( Soavo speakers and A-S2000 / CD-S2000 ). My actual speaker setup is a couple of Soavos ( Soavo-3, Soavo-2, Soavo-900M and Soavo 900C, Subwoofer : good old "beast" YST-SW1500 ).
I would conclude that the electronics have continously become better and better. My power amps replacement was always a clear upgrade. I would say, the MX-D1 is by far the best amp ever made by Yamaha ( if you like the Class-D sound ). It delivers so much more musical details than any of the 80s MX or even the 101M. It´s the difference between Hi-Fi and High-End. No chance. Like someone put that thick blanchett away from the speakers. The only thing that comes quite close is the A-S2000. I would definitely prefer the A-S2000 over all other Yammies - if there wouldn´t be the MX-D1.
Also when it comes to the players : The CD-S2000 and even more the NP-S2000 are superior to all other Yamaha players. It replaced the DVD-S2300, which is a very good player with a characteristic sound, somehow it seems to "shine" to me. You can get this player for rediculous low prices at ebay. It´s a no-brainer in my opinion.
Same story with AV-Receivers. Maybe the late Z-series offered the better power-amp section and craftsmenship, but as a total package of hightec mutimedia playback, the aventage series is the best so far. It has been a long way from the days of DSP-A1000 or even earlier AVX-100. One thing must be clear : still no Yamaha HTR can deliver the same stereo quality as a high-end stereo amp like the A-S2000 !
But it´s very different talking about speakers. I do love my Soavos. They deliver a stunning high level of details and sonic image. Also the cabinets are beautyfully crafted. But due to the small woofers, they lack quite a bit of attack and bass.
Recently a made a shocking experience : I´ve listened to a pair of NS-1000M connected to a A-S2000 / CD-S2000. That day changed everything. Now i´m up to the old beryllium speakers. I´m sorry to say that, but Yamaha missed the chance to continue these speakers. Just imagine a modern NS-1000 or NS-2000.... The good old NS-1000 deliver a level of sheer attack and almost holographic reproduction of sounds, very few actual speakers can compete with. I have the deepest respect for the developers of those be speakers.
Finally my recommendation for more or less affordable Yamaha audio heaven is : get an A-S2000 ( the A-S1000 will do it also ) and some highres network player like NP-S2000 or a pc with external DAC, hook up a pair of NS-1000 or better to it and try to close your mouth again :-D
Kind regards, Oliver
Hi,
i´m from Germany and i´m a big Yamaha fan since 26 years.
My first Yammie was the A-720 in 1986. Then followed by a CDX-710, later then CD-2000. In the 90s i could upgrade to my first dream-setup : CX-1000 / MX-1000, CDX-1120, TX-1000, KX-1200. The MX-1000 then was replaced by the famous monster amp 101M which i kept until 2007. CX-1000 was replaced by a CX-10000. The CDX-1120 was replaced by a GT-CD1.
Then, the hometheater moved in with DSP-A1000. Later i regularly upgraded the TOTL AV-Amp from DSP-A2070, DSP-A3090, DSP-A1, DSP-AZ1, DSP-Z9 ( these are called RX in the US ). I missed the Z11 due to high pricing. Right now i have the RX-A3010 since few days.
My favourite stereo setup is actual a set of two MX-D1 class-D power amps connected to the passive controller YPC-1. This dreamteam is feed by a NP-S2000 network player and a separate DAC ( Metrum Octave ).
My comment on the quality issue : i was mentioning all my historic Yamaha stuff to proof my experience to you guys. I guess, from point of overall craftsmenship, nothings comes close to the high end stuff of the late seventies - execpt the centennial edition of 1987. Unfortunately Yamaha decided around 1990 to give up high end level and put focus on entry level hifi in order to grow in terms of sales turnover. You have to understand, this is always a matter of decisions in business strategy, made by few top managers. For sure the golden age of Hi-Fi was over then. Things began to change. That edgy 70s design with loads of switches and VU-meters was mega-out. 90s design was slim and rounded.
In 2003 there was another approach to enter the high end class again. With DSP-Z9 and MX-D1 Yamaha produced some very cool and expensive stuff. The next interesting step was 2007 with the comeback of stereo ( Soavo speakers and A-S2000 / CD-S2000 ). My actual speaker setup is a couple of Soavos ( Soavo-3, Soavo-2, Soavo-900M and Soavo 900C, Subwoofer : good old "beast" YST-SW1500 ).
I would conclude that the electronics have continously become better and better. My power amps replacement was always a clear upgrade. I would say, the MX-D1 is by far the best amp ever made by Yamaha ( if you like the Class-D sound ). It delivers so much more musical details than any of the 80s MX or even the 101M. It´s the difference between Hi-Fi and High-End. No chance. Like someone put that thick blanchett away from the speakers. The only thing that comes quite close is the A-S2000. I would definitely prefer the A-S2000 over all other Yammies - if there wouldn´t be the MX-D1.
Also when it comes to the players : The CD-S2000 and even more the NP-S2000 are superior to all other Yamaha players. It replaced the DVD-S2300, which is a very good player with a characteristic sound, somehow it seems to "shine" to me. You can get this player for rediculous low prices at ebay. It´s a no-brainer in my opinion.
Same story with AV-Receivers. Maybe the late Z-series offered the better power-amp section and craftsmenship, but as a total package of hightec mutimedia playback, the aventage series is the best so far. It has been a long way from the days of DSP-A1000 or even earlier AVX-100. One thing must be clear : still no Yamaha HTR can deliver the same stereo quality as a high-end stereo amp like the A-S2000 !
But it´s very different talking about speakers. I do love my Soavos. They deliver a stunning high level of details and sonic image. Also the cabinets are beautyfully crafted. But due to the small woofers, they lack quite a bit of attack and bass.
Recently a made a shocking experience : I´ve listened to a pair of NS-1000M connected to a A-S2000 / CD-S2000. That day changed everything. Now i´m up to the old beryllium speakers. I´m sorry to say that, but Yamaha missed the chance to continue these speakers. Just imagine a modern NS-1000 or NS-2000.... The good old NS-1000 deliver a level of sheer attack and almost holographic reproduction of sounds, very few actual speakers can compete with. I have the deepest respect for the developers of those be speakers.
Finally my recommendation for more or less affordable Yamaha audio heaven is : get an A-S2000 ( the A-S1000 will do it also ) and some highres network player like NP-S2000 or a pc with external DAC, hook up a pair of NS-1000 or better to it and try to close your mouth again :-D
Kind regards, Oliver
Bubo
Super Member
Oliver,
Nice write up, agree Yamaha went for the volume with the home theater craze, interestingly 2 ch has made a huge comeback with turntables according to my local high end sales guy. The kids around here snap up every used turntable and old vinyl they can get their hands on, this is also the market for the Class A tube amps from China. Then they search the parents houses for the old large speakers with the big woofers. Next thing you know the mini skirt will be back, hmmmm.
The other area where Yamaha has appeared to fully deploy their resources is the commercial line of amplifiers, where the specs on the products are impressive, I'm guessing that the commercial amps use switching power supplies since they are designed for buildings, movie theaters and concert speakers.
The thing with the older, simpler, Class A amps combined with reasonably efficient speakers is the pure class A sound, before the push pull kicks in. Beyond the syrup of some of the tubes I think this is what the kids hear in the vinyl based systems they now like. My sales guy told me that vinyl outsold CDs in the US last year, I have no way to verify.
Another element of quality is serviceability, and as we all know the pre-microprocessor, discrete component equipment can be serviced virtually forever. Agree the late 70s early 80s was the pinnacle of pure analog discrete technology, and my engineer friends agree. This does not mean however that newer equipment is poorly made, it just wont last as long once the parts are gone.
BTW list your location in Germany, I really miss my office in Munich, and the small suburban town where I would spend weeks while there on work. On either my third or fourth long stay trip I became "recognized" at my local beer garden ( a converted old water driven shop on a creek).
Once seated at the bar, I would get to hear about the daughter's suspicious boyfriend, unrealistic boss, home projects on the wife's wish list, and all of the taxes and regulations. I felt at home:yes:
After ten years in the courts, she is now free of her former contract (slave) owners. I hope to be hearing more from her soon. This is compressed, so wysiwyg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJJAtSLJ2JY&feature=BFa&list=PL07B2A9C15A6F0A30
It isn't Nina, but its the best we could manage on short notice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwhzf8NC4o&feature=related
I liked her better with the Punk look, probably more fun then too:scratch2:
Nice write up, agree Yamaha went for the volume with the home theater craze, interestingly 2 ch has made a huge comeback with turntables according to my local high end sales guy. The kids around here snap up every used turntable and old vinyl they can get their hands on, this is also the market for the Class A tube amps from China. Then they search the parents houses for the old large speakers with the big woofers. Next thing you know the mini skirt will be back, hmmmm.
The other area where Yamaha has appeared to fully deploy their resources is the commercial line of amplifiers, where the specs on the products are impressive, I'm guessing that the commercial amps use switching power supplies since they are designed for buildings, movie theaters and concert speakers.
The thing with the older, simpler, Class A amps combined with reasonably efficient speakers is the pure class A sound, before the push pull kicks in. Beyond the syrup of some of the tubes I think this is what the kids hear in the vinyl based systems they now like. My sales guy told me that vinyl outsold CDs in the US last year, I have no way to verify.
Another element of quality is serviceability, and as we all know the pre-microprocessor, discrete component equipment can be serviced virtually forever. Agree the late 70s early 80s was the pinnacle of pure analog discrete technology, and my engineer friends agree. This does not mean however that newer equipment is poorly made, it just wont last as long once the parts are gone.
BTW list your location in Germany, I really miss my office in Munich, and the small suburban town where I would spend weeks while there on work. On either my third or fourth long stay trip I became "recognized" at my local beer garden ( a converted old water driven shop on a creek).
Once seated at the bar, I would get to hear about the daughter's suspicious boyfriend, unrealistic boss, home projects on the wife's wish list, and all of the taxes and regulations. I felt at home:yes:
After ten years in the courts, she is now free of her former contract (slave) owners. I hope to be hearing more from her soon. This is compressed, so wysiwyg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJJAtSLJ2JY&feature=BFa&list=PL07B2A9C15A6F0A30
It isn't Nina, but its the best we could manage on short notice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwhzf8NC4o&feature=related
I liked her better with the Punk look, probably more fun then too:scratch2:
I'm not into home theater, but I don't think that home theater must by nature result in diminished quality. Home theater is just a different category. I think the issue is about when people see Yamaha gear falling off the shelves at the neighborhood B*st Buy store. That's part of Yamaha's diversification strategy, to even out the peaks and valleys across the economic cycles. However, musical instruments, and studio class equipment, and by extension high end audio still remain at the core of Yamaha's business.
I think that 1983 was the last year that Yamaha made analog equipment with the horizontal tuner band across the face, correct? So that has non-quantifiable appeal for a lot of people.
I think that 1983 was the last year that Yamaha made analog equipment with the horizontal tuner band across the face, correct? So that has non-quantifiable appeal for a lot of people.
Last edited:
marne
80s B&W addicted
Thanks barchetta for sharing your experience, did you blind A/B your amps?
barchetta_66
New Member
Blind test
Dear Marne,
the only blind test i ever did with my equipment was checking the pure direct function on my Yamaha DVD-S2700. I had it hooked up via digital cinch cable to my DSP-Z9. YOu could press "pure direct" and then the video section of the DVD would be deactivated. I could playback an audio cd, close my eyes and randomly switch a few few times and then make a guess if "pure direct" was working or not. After some tries, my guess was always 100% right. The difference was indeed clearly noticable ( pure direct offered more details ).
To be honest, i´ve never had the feeling i should do a blind test. Whenever i thought after some seconds of listening with a new component "wow, i never noticed this detail on my favourite cd", it was right to replace the old things. I guess one of the most dramatic moments was the checkout of the MX-D1. I was able to test it over a weekend and on friday evening i decided to give it a short try although i was already very tired. At that time i used to have the Yamaha top AV-Amp like Z9 supported by a big stereo power amp to drive my main speakers ( German speakers ALR Nr.5 ). The Z9 alone had not enough control over these speakers to get a really dry and precise bass. Looking backwards from now, it was a big mistake to use the AV-Amps as a Preamp for so many years. But i didn´t know how a better to combine stereo and multi-channel setup. Back to the issue : unplugging the 101M which was using for more than 10 years and hooking up the MX-D1 was done in some minutes. Then followed some minutes of me beeing speechless. The MX-D1 unveiled so much more information in the music. Im pretty sure, when the feeling is so overwhelming, you don´t need a blind test. I´d say, this was my first step into high end. And there were some more steps to come.
Two years later i finally managed to purchase an MX-D1. We moved from a flat to a house where i was lucky to have my own music / home theatre room. This was the time where i discovered what happens when i put up a true "analog" stereo system with DVD-S2300, passive controller YPC-1 and MX-D1. Again there was this feeling "omg, how could i miss this for all the years". I was realizing, the Z9 as a preamp was pretty much like a black hole for musical information. After i left the Z9 beside, there was real music coming out of my speakers. This was a huge upgrade for me, maybe the most important.
It was followed by some try and error in speaker positioning and improving the room acoustics. I´ve learned a lot about these topics. The most important thing is : listen and feel. If you feel there´s something wrong with the way the music sounds, think about it and make your mind up, what can be done. I think, our senses are better than we expect sometimes.
Another wakeup moment happened some months ago when i just brought my little Soavo 900M speakers home and hooked them up the MX-D1 in for a short check ( they should mainly work as surround speakers ). After 1 second i thought "oooh, there we have 20 years of progress in speaker develepment". Those little Soavos delivered mids and highs so fine, i haven´t heart before. Anyway so much better than my old speakers, that i decided instantly to go for a complete replacement of all my speakers with Yamaha Soavos.
Well, that was some months ago and now i´m waiting for a chance to compare three speakers in my room : ALR Nr. 5, Yamaha Soavo 3 and Yamaha NS-1000. I guess these speakers are each so different in their character, i would pass a blind test with 100%, but who knows. I will report to you later.
I would also really love to do a blind test with YPC-1/MX-D1 against A-S2000. Could be close.
Kind regards
Oliver
Dear Marne,
the only blind test i ever did with my equipment was checking the pure direct function on my Yamaha DVD-S2700. I had it hooked up via digital cinch cable to my DSP-Z9. YOu could press "pure direct" and then the video section of the DVD would be deactivated. I could playback an audio cd, close my eyes and randomly switch a few few times and then make a guess if "pure direct" was working or not. After some tries, my guess was always 100% right. The difference was indeed clearly noticable ( pure direct offered more details ).
To be honest, i´ve never had the feeling i should do a blind test. Whenever i thought after some seconds of listening with a new component "wow, i never noticed this detail on my favourite cd", it was right to replace the old things. I guess one of the most dramatic moments was the checkout of the MX-D1. I was able to test it over a weekend and on friday evening i decided to give it a short try although i was already very tired. At that time i used to have the Yamaha top AV-Amp like Z9 supported by a big stereo power amp to drive my main speakers ( German speakers ALR Nr.5 ). The Z9 alone had not enough control over these speakers to get a really dry and precise bass. Looking backwards from now, it was a big mistake to use the AV-Amps as a Preamp for so many years. But i didn´t know how a better to combine stereo and multi-channel setup. Back to the issue : unplugging the 101M which was using for more than 10 years and hooking up the MX-D1 was done in some minutes. Then followed some minutes of me beeing speechless. The MX-D1 unveiled so much more information in the music. Im pretty sure, when the feeling is so overwhelming, you don´t need a blind test. I´d say, this was my first step into high end. And there were some more steps to come.
Two years later i finally managed to purchase an MX-D1. We moved from a flat to a house where i was lucky to have my own music / home theatre room. This was the time where i discovered what happens when i put up a true "analog" stereo system with DVD-S2300, passive controller YPC-1 and MX-D1. Again there was this feeling "omg, how could i miss this for all the years". I was realizing, the Z9 as a preamp was pretty much like a black hole for musical information. After i left the Z9 beside, there was real music coming out of my speakers. This was a huge upgrade for me, maybe the most important.
It was followed by some try and error in speaker positioning and improving the room acoustics. I´ve learned a lot about these topics. The most important thing is : listen and feel. If you feel there´s something wrong with the way the music sounds, think about it and make your mind up, what can be done. I think, our senses are better than we expect sometimes.
Another wakeup moment happened some months ago when i just brought my little Soavo 900M speakers home and hooked them up the MX-D1 in for a short check ( they should mainly work as surround speakers ). After 1 second i thought "oooh, there we have 20 years of progress in speaker develepment". Those little Soavos delivered mids and highs so fine, i haven´t heart before. Anyway so much better than my old speakers, that i decided instantly to go for a complete replacement of all my speakers with Yamaha Soavos.
Well, that was some months ago and now i´m waiting for a chance to compare three speakers in my room : ALR Nr. 5, Yamaha Soavo 3 and Yamaha NS-1000. I guess these speakers are each so different in their character, i would pass a blind test with 100%, but who knows. I will report to you later.
I would also really love to do a blind test with YPC-1/MX-D1 against A-S2000. Could be close.
Kind regards
Oliver
michaelhigh
mind's eye music
I've been looking at the little brother to this (A-S500) and I don't even need an integrated! It just looks cool and gets great reviews.:yes:
Bubo
Super Member
hughes,
U can check out the new owner reviews on Amazon, they are usually pretty frank and respond to comments and question.
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha--S500B...8&qid=1345665003&sr=1-1&keywords=yamaha+as500
U can check out the new owner reviews on Amazon, they are usually pretty frank and respond to comments and question.
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha--S500B...8&qid=1345665003&sr=1-1&keywords=yamaha+as500
johnda
Addicted Member
I also have the A-S500 and now that I've had it for a bit of time and broken in, along with my KEF Q300 speakers, I am totally happy with the quality of sound. The only thing I didn't care for was the volume control setting marker was hard to see because it didn't have a diode. I just added my own white marker to make it more visible wHen using the remote to change the volume.
I guess my question was if this has only been on the market since 2010(?) has anybody had a reason to open up the case to service it and form an opinion that way. Sometimes AK is better info.
morksbeanbag
Alarmingly Handsome Chap
I'm so glad someone else has come across what I have. I have a Yamaha DSP-Z9 connected to my upgraded NS-1000M's. I have never heard such an utterly holographic reproduction of music. I would love to hear my NS-1000M's hooked up to the new A-S3000/CD-S3000. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford those new components but nothing can shake my belief in the capability of the beryllium range that Yamaha made, in a nice quiet room with top quality components, nothing else I have heard comes close. I wish they would make a new set of NS-3000(??) with beryllium tweeters and midranges but with one or two new, lighter 8" woofers. That said, the light 12" paper woofer used on the original has never failed to deliver jaw dropping bass, fast, powerful and accurate.
I modded my Z9's power amplifiers with film caps on the input, military spec brass cased feedback capacitors and Nichicon KZ smoothing caps. The results only served to increase already spectacular resolution. The power amplifiers in the Z9 are far from your average cinema amp type, the components and design are the type I would expect to see in high end stereo/monoblock separates. 2SK389's in a cinema amp! Yamaha clearly meant for this to be a truly special piece.
zenith2134
Addicted Member
It isn't just Yamaha.. it's every company involved in electronics. New stuff sucks... plastic, opamp-ridden crap until you spend thousands and thousands on gear.
The good quality stuff was never cheap!
Unfortunately Yamaha did not feel the need to maintain a realistic stock of replacement IC's (or other parts) for their best audio gear, including the Limited Centennial Edition. By comparison, Studer still has replacement components for gear it produced in the 1950's.
