SQ of some pirate live classical-music concert recordings

Being a bit of a classical music fanatic I often source some of pirate recordings of live concerts.

Oftentimes the SQ is below miserable, yes. But sometimes the SQ is just so 'live' that it actually reminds me of the actual concert sound better than most authorised recordings of live concerts.

Recordings of Grigory Sokolov is a prime example. The man rarely records his performance despite his popularity among his hardcore fans and his uncanny ability to really nail the piano in live concerts. He's like the modern version of Sviatoslav Richter. He bashes up the piano to pulps. But due to the lack of his recordings probably, he is not widely appreciated.

Moreover, his authorised recordings mostly from Naïve ain't sounding as good as some of the pirate recordings of his performance. His Tokyo recital in July 1991 is one such example. Although my copies are abhorred mp3 files only, the SQ is just amazing and trounces most FLAC files of famed recordings.

If you dig a little into it, many pirate recordings sound freaking amazing. Their best virtue is the dynamics. It is just what you hear in live concerts.

There are numerous such examples indeed. This Mahler Symphony conducted by MH Chung in 2003 that I'm listening to now sounds very dynamic (ok probably not as good as Solti/CSO on vinyl). And dynamics, my friend, is what makes classical music so appealing to me.

So the question is, why do some of pirate recordings which obviously had no benefit of good & professional mixing/remastering/recording etc sound so dynamic and real? Why is it that many authorised live recordings often fail to do this?

Do you think the SQ of the pirate recording has to do with where the recording gear is placed in the venue. I am assuming it has to be done in the audience and for classical the audience seating does get the best sound.

Just a thought.

I also figure the pirate classical recordings are done by the true aficionado who would do it right with top-notch gear.

I will be interested to hear other thoughts.

Great question.

Many classical venues have microphones permanently installed hanging over the stage and sometimes the house seating, as well. Those mics are probably connected to a recording set-up of some kind. With that excellent placement, it wouldn't be very hard to get some amazing sounding recordings on even the most basic of equipment (cassettes, for example). I think that a lot of these pirate recordings originate from that source.

davidro said:

Being a bit of a classical music fanatic I often source some of pirate recordings of live concerts.

Oftentimes the SQ is below miserable, yes. But sometimes the SQ is just so 'live' that it actually reminds me of the actual concert sound better than most authorised recordings of live concerts.

Recordings of Grigory Sokolov is a prime example. The man rarely records his performance despite his popularity among his hardcore fans and his uncanny ability to really nail the piano in live concerts. He's like the modern version of Sviatoslav Richter. He bashes up the piano to pulps. But due to the lack of his recordings probably, he is not widely appreciated.

Moreover, his authorised recordings mostly from Naïve ain't sounding as good as some of the pirate recordings of his performance. His Tokyo recital in July 1991 is one such example. Although my copies are abhorred mp3 files only, the SQ is just amazing and trounces most FLAC files of famed recordings.

If you dig a little into it, many pirate recordings sound freaking amazing. Their best virtue is the dynamics. It is just what you hear in live concerts.

There are numerous such examples indeed. This Mahler Symphony conducted by MH Chung in 2003 that I'm listening to now sounds very dynamic (ok probably not as good as Solti/CSO on vinyl). And dynamics, my friend, is what makes classical music so appealing to me.

So the question is, why do some of pirate recordings which obviously had no benefit of good & professional mixing/remastering/recording etc sound so dynamic and real? Why is it that many authorised live recordings often fail to do this?

Click to expand...

Maybe because the music pirates and those that use pirated material take money that would otherwise go to the orchestra that would then possibly go into better sounding halls, salaries as well as equipment to record and engineer a desirable and marketable recording?

elicanis said:

Do you think the SQ of the pirate recording has to do with where the recording gear is placed in the venue. I am assuming it has to be done in the audience and for classical the audience seating does get the best sound.

Just a thought.

Click to expand...

This is not entirely impossible.

I also figure the pirate classical recordings are done by the true aficionado who would do it right with top-notch gear.

I will be interested to hear other thoughts.

Click to expand...

I do have some reservation about this though. A lot of aficionados that I've seen don't really care for good gear.

ElPee said:

Many classical venues have microphones permanently installed hanging over the stage and sometimes the house seating, as well. Those mics are probably connected to a recording set-up of some kind. With that excellent placement, it wouldn't be very hard to get some amazing sounding recordings on even the most basic of equipment (cassettes, for example). I think that a lot of these pirate recordings originate from that source.

Click to expand...

If that is the case, why wouldn't commercial people just utilise it? That would save them money too.

CKDC said:

Maybe because the music pirates and those that use pirated material take money that would otherwise go to the orchestra that would then possibly go into better sounding halls, salaries as well as equipment to record and engineer a desirable and marketable recording?

Click to expand...

I don't quite understand the question. Are you suggesting pirate recordings sound worse?

If you would, please define "pirate recordings".

Some might assume for-profit-bootlegs, others might think about it being a recording from the audience, by audience members. There are throngs of people that do this (audience member recordings), who never do anything other than listen again after the performance. By contrast, there are also the wretched for-profit bootleggers.

I've become quite adept at capturing that live ambience feeling in live recordings, and have worked with orchestras, and chamber ensembles for 20 years or so now.
They like the live feeling, rather than the over-processed studio produced feeling, especially the maestro/conductor/artistic directors.
And there has never been once where I've taken money out of "their pockets", disallowing them to be captured with less than stellar gear. Quite the opposite, I present them with the finest gear made, without consideration of profit (as the primary motive). I leave them with masters that they can process, and do sell at following concerts, from which they profit from for extended periods.

I think any unauthorised stuff can be labelled pirate recordings.

Have you heard any good SQ pirate recordings and what do you think of them?

davidro said:

This is not entirely impossible.



I do have some reservation about this though. A lot of aficionados that I've seen don't really care for good gear.




If that is the case, why wouldn't commercial people just utilise it? That would save them money too.




I don't quite understand the question. Are you suggesting pirate recordings sound worse?

Click to expand...

No. I just think classical music as a genre would be in much better shape if the people involved in the legitimate business got ALL the money they deserve.

High thinking but I fail to see much relevance

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk 2

davidro said:

I think any unauthorised stuff can be labelled pirate recordings.

Have you heard any good SQ pirate recordings and what do you think of them?

Click to expand...

Have I heard any?
Yes. I think that they can vary greatly. I've heard some that are mind boggling good, and others that sound like they were recorded from someones rear pant pocket, while sitting on the recorder.
Ultimately, I've never seen a for-profit, for sale bootleg of classical music. In my circle, they just don't exist.
Now on the other hand, I do have audience member perspective recordings that are both stealth, and open recording in nature (authorized is a broad term, and can take forever to discuss; open recording is easier to discuss).

Not all stealth recordings are unauthorized.
Sometimes discretion is the call, even though a recordist is there with full knowledge of the maestro, some circumstances call for no electronics to be seen.
Earlier in this very thread, someone mentioned house mics being mounted up near the ceiling, or ceiling suspended.
I've personally heard patrons complain that even these innocuous ceiling suspended house mics are overbearing to their enjoyment of the concert; that they didn't pay to be in a recording session.
Adding a note regarding these ceiling mics: Quite typically they are choir mics by AudioTechnica, and run about $75 each. They're barely acceptable, but do produce a recordable signal. The old saying of Junk In, Junk Out holds strongly true in this area of audio.

I've developed stealth techniques that capture breathtaking realism without any overt presence of recording gear. These have come in incredibly handy in instances where, for example, a world premiere performance that might be marred by an overt presence of recording gear, snooty patronage doesn't want the presence, etc. Being an invisible recordist has blown the mind of more than one composer and/or maestro.
Again,…. authorized? Yes, but, discretion ruled the moment.

I've also done flat out non-authorized recordings that never see the light of day, beyond my immediate interest and listening to relive the moment many years later (or on the way home, or the next day). Some of them have massive, broad, sweeping, stereo audio imagery, others suck, but still retain some of the feeling of the concert. I developed theses techniques mostly for small club performances in the early 80's, but they serve extremely well in the world of classical/chamber.

Authorized by who?
the maestro? the ensemble? the venue? the union?
all of the above make any sort of classical recording a major PITA, and I've heard repeatedly, the reason more people don't pursue recording it, as the paper work storm is immense.

rambling,…

Not really interested in the authorised debate.
Ya know what I'm getting at. The recordings you can't buy legally.

Still remains a mystery how some of them manage to sound more live than commercial live recordings.
Part of the reason why there's a niche sector that digs such recordings and consider them to be the most desirable versions, I think.

The minimalist recordings can be easily destroyed by any form of processing. Two channel stereo is quite delicate, and anything beyond the softest hand in processing can totally hammer the nuances. It's in these areas of wide open dynamic headroom range where the magic happens. The most that I do to them (the recording masters) is compress the audience ovations, and I do so with software that allows me to literally hand contour those outbursts (which can be on the magnitude of 60dB over the music impulse level). In these instances, its better to bring those loud impulses to the music, rather than to bring the music up to the impulses.
I'm rambling,…. The minimalists do the minimum damage to a recording; the commercial efforts do quite the opposite.

I think that makes a lot of sense and is in line with my guess.

I don't really mind all that chair clicking, clapping, a little coughing, ovation etc.
Give me the pure, unrefined & unadulterated dynamics any day

Once I heard this Kissin live performance pirate/unauthorised/stealth recording of a Prokofiev PC.

The overall SQ was just terrible, yet some of my hardcore fan friends counted it as one of the best versions.

Whilst the overall SQ indeed was truly horrible, the dynamics of Kissin's battering the piano was quite unprecedented. Some of the better dynamics I've heard in actual live piano concert attendance indeed.

Many of the live orchestral classical music recordings arise from radio broadcasts, recorded by radio or theatre engineers, with few microphones (3 usually) placed on fixed locations on top of the orchestra. I have in mind the BSO of the 60's for example, with WGBH broadcasts. In many cases, those live recordings surpass the corresponding studio recordings which were made in the same performance venue (like Symphony Hall in this case). There are some conductors (like Munch, Furtwangler, Toscanini) that were much more comfortable during live performances and didn't enjoy recording sessions (interruptions, outsiders -producers, engineers- that have something to say about the performance, etc). In those cases, clearly live performances delivered better musical experiences than the corresponding commercial ones. Sometimes, the SQ of those recordings was bad and sometimes, excellent, including cases in which that simple microphone topology gave better results than more intricate microphone proliferations. As an example, consider Charles Munch performance of Debussy "La Mer". The studio (RCA) recording is a very nice one, though a bit distant and not so much powerful. The live broadcast issued by Music and Arts or the BSO own CD label surpasses that recording in every possible aspect, including SQ (there are noises, but the perspective of the orchestra is completely natural and well balanced). All in all, one of the two best recordings of La Mer known to me. Curiously enough, the other one is also a live recording with Arturo Toscanini conducting the NBCSO (a Fonit Cetra LP seems to be the best sounding source, with better SQ than the corresponding studio RCA recording), IMHO.

PS: vs

PS2: in the case of Toscanini's La Mer there is a recording venue change, from RCA studio 8H to Carnegie Hall for the live concert, if memory serves. I would have to check the record sleeves.

Regarding the discussion about what is legal and what is not, please bear in mind that there is, at present, no universal law (about anything, for the matter) applicable to every place on this planet. For example, copyright laws have expiration limits that are variable according to each country. The above Fonit Cetra LP was not a pirate release in the sense of being illegal: it was perfectly legal in Italy. Even today those considerations apply, e.g., to many Naxos historical releases that could not be sold in the USA:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/May10/furtwangler_schubert_8111344.htm

mfrench said:

The minimalists do the minimum damage to a recording; the commercial efforts do quite the opposite.

Click to expand...

I agree with you, at least on general terms.

I am piling in with the minimum damage to a recording train of thought.

Seems the most plausible.