Bad Vinyl: Pressing quality, "Groove Abuse", or cartridge tracking issues?

Swapping out a lot of carts recently, I have been paying more attention than usual to cartridge alignment, tracking, and distortion.

I've noticed that some LPs track really well and some just won't play for me. I know that's the name of the game, but I'm wondering about a few fine points.

Some examples. I've been listening to the following LPs and noticing variability between the sound quality that I cannot entirely identify as a tracking issue, a pressing issue, or even perhaps a ruined record (like one that was played previously with a too-heavy track or a too-large stylus).

To be clear, I'm not talking about DIRTY vinyl -- that's a whole other story. These are all clean, excellent condition 2nd hand discs. Nor am I talking about lousy pressings like Murray Hill records or Vanguard budget labels.

Two different Shure carts were used on each:
1.New M97xe,
2. Older V15iiiHE with aftermarket stylus

Four test LPs were used. Results are below:

1. Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 - Böhm/Pollini/Vienna Philharmonic - DGG (1975?) Very good sound, rec. in Vienna Musikverein, some minimal inner groove distortion on both cartridges, mostly only at the very end of the side. Somewhat boomy lower end,

2. Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2 - Gilels/Jochum/Berlin Philharmonic -DGG (1971) Muddier sound, somewhat midrangy and piano sound can be brittle. Tracks somewhat poorly! Distorts a lot toward center but not only there. LP is visually new and clean.

3. Mahler Symphony No. 5 - Kubelik/Bayerischen Rundfunks - DGG (1971) A famous recording of the Mahler symphonies that I have never really loved. The sound is brittle throughout and the clarity in the low strings is very distant and muddy. No clarity nor sonic space. Many people love this LP but I can't get into it - I would love to hear the CD remaster!

4. Hindemith- Mathis Der Maler - Blomstedt/San Francisco - mid 1980s Decca
Gorgeous. This LP tracks beautifully from center to edge no matter what cart I put on it. Even in the Fortissimo last passages.

What is your experience, could the problems described above with the two 1971 DGG lps be questions of pressing or of equipment or of alignment? What about the other two excellent sounding discs that track fine with the same setup?

I'm really curious to hear your expert thoughts. I have tried to be somewhat methodical about this so I can frame the question as a controlled experiment, to some degree. Thank you -

FWIW....I've never had a mistracking issue with a DGG pressing....or with a Vanguard for that matter. Maybe I've been lucky. I use a Shure M91E or M91ED most of the time....or a V15VXmR occasionally.

Generally, I haven't seen tracking issues with DGG either, but i was curious about experiences with damaged vinyl.

If my stylus is fine with some records and not others, I always chalk it up to previous owner wear. Any inner groove distortion, since it cant be fixed, I just assume its previous owner wear, and chuck it, if I want to listen to the songs.

I agree. If some lps sound awesome, yet some not so much, how can you blame anything but the media itself? It is either a bad pressing or a record with groove wear. Trying a different stylus type may help distinguish between the two?

With all due respect I think your mind fuking yourself. You will never get all those variables to please you (I Guess)

The time you're spending changing and moving setups and sycoanilizing the sound you can't possibly be enjoying the music.

Yep not all records sound good, not all cartridges sound good, not all decks and arms sound good. When you setup the best you have and the variable is the record and you don't like it don't play it.

4-2-7 -- you are right, I am not listening to the "music" this week, I'm taking a break from the music to listen to the "audio" so I can get back to the "music"...

:bat:

(not sure what the bat means, but I always wanted to use it...)

IGD is annoying. Hell, I've heard it on brand new pressings with proper tracking (as unbelievable as it sounds). Just a thing with records I guess.

As long as it's not a consistent thing, I wouldn't worry.

My 2p worth - the most likely factor in difference between such records is vinyl composition/condition - specifically how that affects stylus-groove friction. Way too much is attributed to 'previous user wear' or 'irreversible damage' in my book, when it's often the case that playing with a different setup is fine or at least better.

Stylus-groove friction might often explain much - such as why results can vary so much between styli, why minor changes to azimuth or SRA can have profound effects etc etc

I don't really buy the much mooted 'records damaged by previous mistracking' line either, based on the number of times records have miraculously recovered for me. So these are reasons to be cheerful, if one can only unlock low stylus-groove friction IMO. awprint:

I have never had any quality issues with DGG recordings. I think they have a great dynamic range and VERY quiet background. I have many DGG recordings from the 70's and 80's and think they are very well engineered and well made.
Have you checked the overhang angle on your cartridge? Have you attempted to contact the manufacturer for suggestions? On my Denon DP-62L it's 50MM. When I get it right, the recordings sound beautiful.

Good Luck!

All it takes is a worn stylus, playing a brand new album once, the record is trashed! There isn't a cartridge that it's going to sound any good!

Sounding good and mistracking are two completely different beast. If your arm is mistracking then you have not set it up right, or your cartridge and arm are not a good match or maybe you have a problem with the bearings in your tonearm. I have quite a number of tables and I have no problems with tracking from start to finish even on records that have scratches or worn grooves.

And iMO many of the DG records have pretty covers and look nice and shiny but don't offer the very best in quality. The older the DG recording the more likely it is of better quality, but you still should have no problem with them playing from start to finish with consistent audio quality.

I've never had tracking issues with DGG using older Ortofons in the 60's 70', Stanton, 881 or 981, and Dynavector 10X4 and the 20x2 HO since 2010. That being said DGG recording quality can be all over the place. Some are miked to close, others to far. Most DGG have roll off in the bottom octave taking away the thrill Telarc, Phillips, London, etc have. The vinyl is usually very quiet and the modulations overly controlled.But the recordings can be very hard and strident for the string sections and the brass to forward. Cellos and Double basses have never sounded life like to me. Some times the recordings sound to flat image wise with no front to back depth and others sound like left, center, and right with a lack smoothness in the spread. Bernstein recordings can be particularly obnoxious. And yet, I have some of DGG DDD format CD's that are very enjoyable. The ADD and ADD CD's can sound just as bad on CD as they did on vinyl.

Now I've never been a Shure fan. I have used Shures in Radio Stations, in Disco installations, Home installations and for trial at home. The best was the V-15 V MR by far. The iii and 97 response is to ragged for me. They track well very well however. And though, Stanton 681 are colored in the midrange and the 881 and 891 are lacking in the low bass I much prefer them. Even Audio technika with the judicious use of tone controls don't track as well as a Shure, they sound better. My favorite dynamic cartridge is the Grace F9. The Dynavectors remind of the older Ortofons SL series, but track so much betteer and are better at getting the last ounce of performance from the groove that other cartridges can onlyobtain by being overly bright. Clear Audio, Lyra and Koetsu, for instance.

From probably beyond 10.000 purchases of LPs, of which many was second hand, only a handful were faulty.

Most issues about IGD is due to low quality cartridges like cheap ones, conical/eliptical ones, mismatched arm/cartridge, badly alligned arm/cartridge, issues with bearings in the arm.

If an LP has been mistreated by earlier owner, you will hear from the very first contact in the outer groove to the very last inner groove.

Be aware that flexing arms and interchangeable arm heads can cause azimuth, zenith and other issues influencing on the allignment.

The two cartridges you mention track bad and are entry level cheap cartridges. Don't expect much from them.
And also count on that they will wear your vinyl faster than higher quality cartridges/styli.

You should search for the issue at your own equipment.

Ultralyd said:

The two cartridges you mention track bad and are entry level cheap cartridges. Don't expect much from them.
And also count on that they will wear your vinyl faster than higher quality cartridges/styli.

You should search for the issue at your own equipment.

Click to expand...

I am pretty sure you have more experience with this, and better equipment, than I. But I'm also pretty sure you are way overstating how bad these two cartridges are.

I'm also comparing a good few LPs to the CD remaster here in my living room, and able to get results that show some of them to be a match. So that's a control that proves my system isn't terribly inferior (even if it might not be good enough for you.)

twiiii said:

I've never had tracking issues with DGG using older Ortofons in the 60's 70', Stanton, 881 or 981, and Dynavector 10X4 and the 20x2 HO since 2010. That being said DGG recording quality can be all over the place. Some are miked to close, others to far. Most DGG have roll off in the bottom octave taking away the thrill Telarc, Phillips, London, etc have. The vinyl is usually very quiet and the modulations overly controlled.But the recordings can be very hard and strident for the string sections and the brass to forward. Cellos and Double basses have never sounded life like to me. Some times the recordings sound to flat image wise with no front to back depth and others sound like left, center, and right with a lack smoothness in the spread. Bernstein recordings can be particularly obnoxious. And yet, I have some of DGG DDD format CD's that are very enjoyable. The ADD and ADD CD's can sound just as bad on CD as they did on vinyl.

Click to expand...

Which Bernsteins give you the fits? I'm comparing the BSO 1977 "Faust-Symphony" in the LP (original pressing) and CD versions. I find both pretty good. The LP definitely tracks "difficult" but once I get myself adjusted right, it comes alive.

The later Vienna Phil recordings by Bernstein I have mostly on CD, but I will try and hear one or two LP to compare.

I completely agree with you on the variability of the DGG recordings. Lots of different methods and different engineers, methinks. Also, I think they probably overproduced and some were done in a rush (especially in the big $ heyday of the 1970s).

operaman said:

I am pretty sure you have more experience with this, and better equipment, than I. But I'm also pretty sure you are way overstating how bad these two cartridges are.

I'm also comparing a good few LPs to the CD remaster here in my living room, and able to get results that show some of them to be a match. So that's a control that proves my system isn't terribly inferior (even if it might not be good enough for you.)

Click to expand...

I'm not at all refering to your system as being bad.

I am pinpointing where the cause to your described issue is.
And I am not mistaken here.

luckydog said:

My 2p worth - the most likely factor in difference between such records is vinyl composition/condition - specifically how that affects stylus-groove friction. Way too much is attributed to 'previous user wear' or 'irreversible damage' in my book, when it's often the case that playing with a different setup is fine or at least better.

Stylus-groove friction might often explain much - such as why results can vary so much between styli, why minor changes to azimuth or SRA can have profound effects etc etc

I don't really buy the much mooted 'records damaged by previous mistracking' line either, based on the number of times records have miraculously recovered for me. So these are reasons to be cheerful, if one can only unlock low stylus-groove friction IMO. awprint:

Click to expand...

This is an interesting thought... I know I have gotten much better performance out of some records than I ever thought possible by tweaking my VTA and zenith. And, when I finally get my rig set to perfection, about 95% of my records will play perfectly.

...But, I have a few problem records that seem to require a setup all their own to play properly... in other words, I might have to rotate my cartridge out of whack just a smidge to get them to play distortion and sibilance free. Otherwise, things like distortion, IGD, and sibilance will be evident in one channel a bit before the other. It makes me wonder if there may be records that were cut with a cutting tip that was just a little off... Maybe rotated a bit from true, or maybe the rake angle wasn't dead on... Slightly misshapen, perhaps? I know it's possible that these things could also be due to wear or to an imbalanced mix. Still, it's an interesting thought. There are plenty of playback styli with these kinds of issues, so it stands to reason that the same thing *could* happen with a cutting tip.

Multiplex said:

This is an interesting thought... I know I have gotten much better performance out of some records than I ever thought possible by tweaking my VTA and zenith. And, when I finally get my rig set to perfection, about 95% of my records will play perfectly.

...But, I have a few problem records that seem to require a setup all their own to play properly... in other words, I might have to rotate my cartridge out of whack just a smidge to get them to play distortion and sibilance free. Otherwise, things like distortion, IGD, and sibilance will be evident in one channel a bit before the other. It makes me wonder if there may be records that were cut with a cutting tip that was just a little off... Maybe rotated a bit from true, or maybe the rake angle wasn't dead on... Slightly misshapen, perhaps? I know it's possible that these things could also be due to wear or to an imbalanced mix. Still, it's an interesting thought. There are plenty of playback styli with these kinds of issues, so it stands to reason that the same thing *could* happen with a cutting tip.

Click to expand...

:thmbsp: I've had the same experience. I reckon you are right.