High End System Building on a Budget

I wouldn't consider a $10,000 system to be anywhere near "cost is no object."

One could go a long way on that budget if buying used gear, which is what I've always done. But the list prices on my system total up to $19,000 and I've made several cost cutting sacrifices across the years.

I would be hard pressed to name a sub-$10,000 pair of speakers which I would considered to be all that "high end." Although I know some consider the $6K Maggie 3.7i to be such.

When a Toyota Corolla runs one around $17K-$18K, I just don't consider spending $10K on audio to be all that big a deal.

While I agree that $10,000 isn't anywhere close to a "cost is no object" system, I think it just as wrong to pick a dollar figure and say anything under is not a high end piece.

I also would be one of those who would name Maggie 3.7's as high end, furthermore I'd add the 1.7's to the list of high end pieces. Given a smaller room and and 600 hours or more on them you would be hard pressed to make a major improvement spending 3 to 5 times more, that's not to say one couldn't do better but the 1.7's hit well above their weight class.
 
How is a thread on building a used, high value system one for a forum named 'The Cutting Edge'?


There was discussion that TCE would be the appropriate place for High End Audio discussions.

Not every system that can give you a glimpse into the High End has to cost six figures.

Many of us who have been playing around High End Audio over the years know this to be true.

Why settle for mid-fi when, with judicious system matching and the realization that you can't get everything for nothing, you can get a real slice of high end sound.

How big of a slice depends on you, your budget, your room and your expectations.

Come on over to the threads in TCE. You may like what you read.

YMMV.....
 
I'm all for building high value systems, and buying great used gear at good prices.

Just questioning why the appropriate forum for such discussions is one named "The Cutting Edge." The cutting edge in any hobby is the latest and greatest technology. Discussing 10 year old power amps and speakers from the 1990s is discussing, "The Trailing Edge" of technology. Stuff that used to be leading edge but is now aged and highly discounted.
 
I'm all for building high value systems, and buying great used gear at good prices.

Just questioning why the appropriate forum for such discussions is one named "The Cutting Edge." The cutting edge in any hobby is the latest and greatest technology. Discussing 10 year old power amps and speakers from the 1990s is discussing, "The Trailing Edge" of technology. Stuff that used to be leading edge but is now aged and highly discounted.

Basicaly Tom it's because of the rules in that forum. As it's a always a problem on this site if your system and desires for one over a grand is tried to be talked about. The idea is to maybe have an intelligent thread that doesn't get flamed out and closed for a change. I agree with you but it's starting to become a problem on this site to talk about all audio.

Hell I couldn't even post an appology thread without someone coping an atitude in it and getting it closed in less than 24 hours.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=667432
 
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I'm all for building high value systems, and buying great used gear at good prices.

Just questioning why the appropriate forum for such discussions is one named "The Cutting Edge." The cutting edge in any hobby is the latest and greatest technology. Discussing 10 year old power amps and speakers from the 1990s is discussing, "The Trailing Edge" of technology. Stuff that used to be leading edge but is now aged and highly discounted.

Cutting edge has nothing to do with age...it's about performance and the methods one employs to maximize it. As a matter of fact, I submit that the forum has much more to do with tweaking than the most recent tech.
 
In the IT world, The Leading Edge is often referred to as The Bleeding Edge. We wait for version x.1, with the worst bugs fixed.
 
So, there's a pair of Harbeth C7-ES3, 30th anniversary edition, on CL nearby for $2500. Lots of folks say those are end-game speakers. Their designer, Alan Shaw, is a no-nonsense sort in the Peter Walker mold. He recommends a QUAD 405-2 or similar amp. I paid $200 for mine IIRC. So that's a bit less than 10% for the amp, maybe 20% if the amp needs an overhaul. Add a Sonos Connect source and a NAS, and you're still under $4K for a pretty damn decent system.

Alan Shaw designs speakers that are easy to drive, and he doesn't believe there are discernible differences in sound between expensive and inexpensive amplifiers. What he does think is important is having user flexibility in the form of balance and tone controls, and some specific amps he has recommended include the Pioneer A-30-K and the Pulse SRA-160USB. He has also said that inexpensive source components such as a portable CD player are fully adequate. Even paying full retail, the $3795 per pair Compact 7es3 speakers with a modest cd player and integrated amp could come in well under half the $10,000 limit in the Cutting Edge thread.

Shaw is also of the opinion that bass extension below 60 Hz is really not necessary and may be socially irresponsible. On a thread in the Harbeth forums, referring to experiments with filtering out all sound below 60 Hz, he said, "The point is that the weight and warmth of those stringed instruments (presumably cellos and double basses) has been substantially retained even with the filter applied which must, logically, mean that their primary contribution to the musical spectrum is above 60Hz - and even above 90Hz. This 60-90Hz region is reproducible on even the tiny P3ESR (at a sensible volume) for a fully lifelike experience. . . It could be argued that as a socially responsible neighbour, your choice of speaker should be governed by the irritation that it causes to others versus the sonic benefit it may bring you. They may hear that boom-boom-boom from <60Hz throbbing through their walls: you probably won't notice its presence or absence." http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...d-my-speakers-go-for-a-lifelike-sound-at-home

The thread at the Cutting Edge defined high end as having "the goal of reproducing the sound of live, unamplified music in the home. Recreation of the soundstage and dynamics of the original performance across a wide frequency range are a priority with midrange fidelity having the highest priority." A system I believe comes close to achieving these goals would be a Well Tempered Amadeus II turntable, Grado Reference Sonata cartridge, Audio by Van Alstine Insight+ EC preamplifier with optional phono stage, Audio by Van Alstine Synergy 240 power amplifier, and Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II speakers with base units. Total cost comes in about $8722 full retail including the generic type interconnects and speaker wire recommended by Audio by Van Alstine, and another $950 or so might be needed for shipping and taxes. I can't recommend this system in that other thread because my ownership and experience is with products of earlier generations (i.e., the WTRP rather than the Amadeus II, OmegaStar and Insight line electronics from Audio by Van Alstine rather than Insight+ and Synergy, Vandersteen 2Ci's rather than 2Ce Sig II's), but for someone defining high end the way that thread does, I think it would be an excellent system for the money.
 
jrtrent, thanks for your thoughtful post. My flippant and reactionary responses: :D

Alan Shaw designs speakers that are easy to drive, and he doesn't believe there are discernible differences in sound between expensive and inexpensive amplifiers....
He may have meant that some inexpensive amplifiers sound as good as the expensive, good ones. That, I'll grant.

Otherwise if we discard the red-herring clause "expensive and inexpensive", then I am reminded of the term "idiot-savant". Another reason to Question Authority!

Shaw is also of the opinion that bass extension below 60 Hz is really not necessary and may be socially irresponsible....
For enjoying music, it isn't necessary. For reproducing music, it is, of course. What can I conclude? That he's plugging his small speakers. Does he scold his customers who choose his big speakers? I think not.

I can't recommend this system in that other thread because my ownership and experience is with products of earlier generations...
I'm sure you would you be fine recommending your earlier system there, or even the new version, with that caveat.

:music:
 
Alan Shaw designs speakers that are easy to drive, and he doesn't believe there are discernible differences in sound between expensive and inexpensive amplifiers. What he does think is important is having user flexibility in the form of balance and tone controls, and some specific amps he has recommended include the Pioneer A-30-K and the Pulse SRA-160USB. He has also said that inexpensive source components such as a portable CD player are fully adequate. Even paying full retail, the $3795 per pair Compact 7es3 speakers with a modest cd player and integrated amp could come in well under half the $10,000 limit in the Cutting Edge thread.

Shaw is also of the opinion that bass extension below 60 Hz is really not necessary and may be socially irresponsible. On a thread in the Harbeth forums, referring to experiments with filtering out all sound below 60 Hz, he said, "The point is that the weight and warmth of those stringed instruments (presumably cellos and double basses) has been substantially retained even with the filter applied which must, logically, mean that their primary contribution to the musical spectrum is above 60Hz - and even above 90Hz. This 60-90Hz region is reproducible on even the tiny P3ESR (at a sensible volume) for a fully lifelike experience. . . It could be argued that as a socially responsible neighbour, your choice of speaker should be governed by the irritation that it causes to others versus the sonic benefit it may bring you. They may hear that boom-boom-boom from <60Hz throbbing through their walls: you probably won't notice its presence or absence." http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...d-my-speakers-go-for-a-lifelike-sound-at-home

Valid points within the context of a few specific scenarios...but sure as hell not valid for many in the hobby (including myself) who have no obligation toward self-imposed limitations and hand wringing. And this line of thinking surely is an injustice to those artists who have sub 60 Hz content as part of their creative offering.

I won't touch the amp and cd player thing simply because of it's obvious absurdity...unless his speakers have the uncanny ability to make all source components sound the same, too.
 
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I'm sure you would you be fine recommending your earlier system there, or even the new version, with that caveat.

:music:

I agree. As a prior owner of 2ci's I'm a big Vandersteen fan and take interest in any system that employs one of their designs.
 
I came across a pair of Vandersteen 2ce s . I was curious so I purchased them .
I Found them a little laid back for my taste .They did Image very well .
I find my Ohm Walsh 2000 more to my taste . At least in my room
 
Below 60Hz the room becomes a much larger factor in the resulting sound.

Liberal use of high pass filters is standard practice in the recording world.
 
social responsibility for sound reproduction below 60Hz is a concern of an apartment dweller not a single family home occupant when the rest of the crew is out of the house.
 
Amen . Unfortunately i am one of those apt dwellers . Hence the use of the DSPeaker 2.0 for my stereo subs. This thing works well . I could not enjoy the first octave with out it
This is what the cutting edge is all about.
 
Amen . Unfortunately i am one of those apt dwellers . Hence the use of the DSPeaker 2.0 for my stereo subs. This thing works well . I could not enjoy the first octave with out it
This is what the cutting edge is all about.
Some modern surround processors, if used with a pair of subs, have an option that supposedly reduces low frequency sound outside of the space between subwoofers. I didn't try that feature myself though, and thus cannot comment on how well it works.
 
Amen . Unfortunately i am one of those apt dwellers . Hence the use of the DSPeaker 2.0 for my stereo subs. This thing works well . I could not enjoy the first octave with out it
This is what the cutting edge is all about.

You need to swing by and try the Realiser some time.
 
I came across a pair of Vandersteen 2ce s . I was curious so I purchased them .
I Found them a little laid back for my taste .They did Image very well .
I find my Ohm Walsh 2000 more to my taste . At least in my room

The first time I heard Vandersteen 2-series speakers -- a pair of 2Ci's in a dealer demo -- they didn't impress me, either. They sounded too laid-back, which may have been the fault of the demo room or the Linn amp that was driving them. The next time I heard 2Ci's, with a less laid-back amp driving them, I couldn't whip out my checkbook fast enough. Apparently they're very revealing of differences in sources and amplification. My middle son owns the used pair of 2Ci's that I bought and loves listening to them.
 
the vandersteens do VERY well with tube amps as evidenced by Randy Cooley of Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica California primarily sells them with Audio Research electronics.

they benefit from toeing them in to reduce the reflected sound from side walls. a skub with them isn't essential as they go down nicely to 30Hz.
 
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