Experiences with modern phono stages and vintage Mcintosh?

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I recently caught the vintage audio bug (mostly because of you guys!), and have assembled the following system:

- Mcintosh C26 (works fine, might need service)
- MC 2505 (caps replaced, serviced, sounds great)
- Pro-ject Genie 3 (stock sumiko pearl cartridge)
- Schiit modi DAC
- B&W 685 s2s

Audio through the DAC sounds pretty good, but vinyls sound a bit thin, sometimes saturate, and don't quite "involve" me, when by all accounts the above combo should be a pretty good one.

I suspect the C26 to be the weak link here, especially when it comes to its phono stage. This is due to the above difference between digital audio on the AUX input and Vinyls coming in to the phono stage, plus what seems to be the consensus on this unit's performance. The fact that the person who sold it to me was very flaky also makes me suspect it's not in great shape.

I was wondering if anybody here had any thoughts or experiences on matching a modern phono stage with the C26 and bypassing its phono stage? I was thinking of the lounge audio LCR for instance:

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/lounge-audio-phonostage/

Where will I get the best bang for the buck, purchasing a 2-300$ phono stage, or getting the C26 serviced? It seems to work fine on the aux inputs, so I mostly suspect the phono stage of needing some TLC, but I wonder if even in great shape it would be better than the Lounge unit.

I contacted the engineer who designed the above LCR phono stage, and he was unsure of whether or not the MC2505 would let his unit shine, suspecting it of being perhaps too heavy handed for the nuances of the LCR.

I'd welcome any thoughts, hints or recommendations

I say get a good separate phono pre and don't look back. Why? The same reason you use a preamp and a power amp. It gives you more granular upgrade possibility and no matter how good you get the C26 phono pre working, it'll be hard pressed to match a quieter more modern outboard unit.

I have two external units and don't use the internal phono pre of my C220 at all so I'm walking this walk with modern McIntosh too.

Jblnut

I've got an external Blue Circle L2 phono pre hooked up to my C34V. Works a treat Much quieter than the C34V phono input, and zero hum.

Well I don't really know you and I don't want to insult any of your choices so far.

However you not getting good vinyl sound because of your turntable and cartridge. If you realy want quality sounding vinyl that will match the rest of your gear and CD sound I would start again. You could go buy a phono stage and spend $1500 if you want to but the sound starts at that sylus and vinyl > then to the arm and deck > then to phono Preamp.

I don't know the condition of your C26 so I'm not saying that it's not contributing to poor sound quality but it's not the only link in the system. If you like playing records it will be better to think at the reality of cost to get to were you want to be. You can out grow vinyl playback gear really fast, so it's better to buy equipment that keeps you happy in the long run.

4-2-7 said:

Well I don't really know you and I don't want to insult any of your choices so far.

However you not getting good vinyl sound because of your turntable and cartridge. If you realy want quality sounding vinyl that will match the rest of your gear and CD sound I would start again. You could go buy a phono stage and spend $1500 if you want to but the sound starts at that sylus and vinyl > then to the arm and deck > then to phono Preamp.

I don't know the condition of your C26 so I'm not saying that it's not contributing to poor sound quality but it's not the only link in the system. If you like playing records it will be better to think at the reality of cost to get to were you want to be. You can out grow vinyl playback gear really fast, so it's better to buy equipment that keeps you happy in the long run.

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understood. However, please keep in mind my budget is limited, and the turntable was the first item I got, as a gift.

Furthermore, the limits I express above do not seem intrinsic to the elements of my setup. As in, some of the artefacts and brightness I hear seem to be more a defect of one of the elements in the chain rather than an inherent limit, if this makes sense?

At any rate, if you have any recommendations for a turntable or cartridge that would inherently be a better match to CD sound, I'm all ears

I disagree with 4-2-7.

I think a good phono stage is crucial to the TT playback system. If the phono stage kills the good stuff coming from the TT, then it really doesn't matter whats ahead of it.

I'd recommend a used Lehmann Black Cube. Easily available for around $350, including one in Bartertown right now. Very flexible, and sounds really great.

I had a C-26 for a very long time and I enjoyed listening to vinyl on it but there are much better phono stages out there. The C-26 doesn't exactly have stellar S/N ratio. It's -74dB which is nothing to write home about. Plus it has not been recapped right? So that might be your weakest point in the chain.

Bigerik said:

I disagree with 4-2-7.

I think a good phono stage is crucial to the TT playback system. If the phono stage kills the good stuff coming from the TT, then it really doesn't matter whats ahead of it.

I'd recommend a used Lehmann Black Cube. Easily available for around $350, including one in Bartertown right now. Very flexible, and sounds really great.

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No no no I wasn't saying that they don't need a stage, that would be part of the whole vinly front end. What I'm trying to get at is thinking about what they want in the end and we sorta know, SQ like CD's. Well to get there we need to look at the entier vinly play back system. Your not going to get there with a MDF platter on a Pro-Ject Genie 3 and a Sumiko Pearl. You can buy a $2500 stage and not get there because of the above components.

sheytan said:

understood. However, please keep in mind my budget is limited, and the turntable was the first item I got, as a gift.

Furthermore, the limits I express above do not seem intrinsic to the elements of my setup. As in, some of the artefacts and brightness I hear seem to be more a defect of one of the elements in the chain rather than an inherent limit, if this makes sense?

At any rate, if you have any recommendations for a turntable or cartridge that would inherently be a better match to CD sound, I'm all ears

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Cartridge
Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III. Or other at this level

Stage
Clearaudio Nano. or
Musical Surroundings
http://www.michaelyeeaudio.com/

I like SOTA Phono Head Amps but you have to wate for them to show up as they don't make them any more.

A really good mat will help your turntable, try different types.

Some nice interconects from the stage to the pre.

If I were the OP, I'd start with the excellent Emotiva XPS-1 that is very affordable with a 30 day return policy. No need to get a phono stage worth more then your turntable unless you're absolutely sure you'll be upgrading. At the least you'll be able to determine if the problem is with the phono stage.

(FWIW I used the XPS-1 with both my old Clearaudio and current VPI table and needed to spend 4 figures to really better it, YMMV etc.)

Before you spend another penny: can you adjust the VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) on your cartridge? If the height of the tonearm can be adjusted, the answer is yes. VTA has a very large effect on the sound. Too high and the sound will be thin, edgy and lacking in bass; too low and it will be bass heavy, muted and lacking in sparkle.

P.S. I checked online and the VTA and azimuth can be adjusted...problems in these areas could easily account for your problems with the sound.

Also try breaking in the stylus.

Set the weight at the max the cartridge supports, then run it in for a good 12 hours on a scrap record.

I remember the C-26 having a full bodied sound for the phono stage, when using Ortofon SPU and SPU/gte cartridges. Shure, empire, and especially Audio Tecknica could screech, though. Stantons 681 EE were pretty neutral. V-15 I, II, III, were real prominent above 8 khz. I NEVER HEARD OF A C-26 OR 28 OVER LOADING. The Ortofons with built in step up transformers cold put out a lot of signal close to 5 mv with 1 khz ref tone and never faltered when new. So I would say your 26 needs help. The advantage to an external pre-ampis if you choose you can use either MM or MC and drive a aux or other line input and obtain better signal to noise than the original C-26 inputs. Of course if you had the C-26 rebuilt with updated components your MM inputs will improve and the over all performance of the unit would improve too.

Emotiva has a stand alone phono stage for $140 that a lot of people seem to like, it's also returnable if you don't like in within 30 days.

Pretty sure there are a lot of reviews on it. Amazon and Emotiva both stock it.

http://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-XPS-1-Phono-Preamp/dp/B00PMCIYK4/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1416510300&sr=1-2&keywords=emotiva+phono+preamp

If you want clear tight sound then you want a C-29. Very very quiet with great transient capability. The C-28 has a warmer sound as it uses discrete components where the C-29 uses IC's. My C-34 just seem to have a touch of fog about the presentation compared to the C-29, but for 99% of listening no one would know the difference. C-2300 and C-500 have similar phono stages I'm told and though I love the sound of the C-500 I prefer the SS version. Though the tube section was very enjoyable when driving Snell Phantom speakers with 2301 power amps. I've heard the C-2300 and C-220 and wasn't impressed, though it could have been the Lyra in a VPI Classic and Clear Audio cartridge in a MT-10 I didn't like. I'm a dyed in the wool Dynavector person.. They have the warm sound you are looking for. Reminds me of my Ortofons Sl-15 II and SL 20. The SL 15 was +/- 1.5 db from 20 to 40,000 Hz with a slight dip starting at 500 reaching its max at 3000 and returning to flat at 5,000 hz. The 20 x 2 I'm using now is 20 to 20,000 +/- 1 db with a slight rise in the bass below 100 hz. I want to try an XX2 but its a very pricey.

Thanks all for the very valuable feedback.

Beowulf62, I will certainly verify the VTA and azimuth tonight, though I did have it adjusted at the shop when I purchased it. At first it was tracking too light and the sound was horrible, so perhaps there's still some room for tweaking.

The consensus seems to be that the best bang for the buck solution would be the Emotiva phono stage vs. restoration of the C26 (which sounds fine on the other line level inputs). The return policy sounds pretty convenient so it's worth a try!

.

The emotiva is great value for the money. I use one on my backup table to get it to my mx113 or fisher 400. I have a great cart on my backup table and the XPS-1 doesn't let it down.


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twiiii said:

If you want clear tight sound then you want a C-29. Very very quiet with great transient capability. The C-28 has a warmer sound as it uses discrete components where the C-29 uses IC's. My C-34 just seem to have a touch of fog about the presentation compared to the C-29, but for 99% of listening no one would know the difference. C-2300 and C-500 have similar phono stages I'm told and though I love the sound of the C-500 I prefer the SS version. Though the tube section was very enjoyable when driving Snell Phantom speakers with 2301 power amps. I've heard the C-2300 and C-220 and wasn't impressed, though it could have been the Lyra in a VPI Classic and Clear Audio cartridge in a MT-10 I didn't like. I'm a dyed in the wool Dynavector person.. They have the warm sound you are looking for. Reminds me of my Ortofons Sl-15 II and SL 20. The SL 15 was +/- 1.5 db from 20 to 40,000 Hz with a slight dip starting at 500 reaching its max at 3000 and returning to flat at 5,000 hz. The 20 x 2 I'm using now is 20 to 20,000 +/- 1 db with a slight rise in the bass below 100 hz. I want to try an XX2 but its a very pricey.

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Agree all the way about the C29.

twiiii said:

If you want clear tight sound then you want a C-29. Very very quiet with great transient capability. The C-28 has a warmer sound as it uses discrete components where the C-29 uses IC's. My C-34 just seem to have a touch of fog about the presentation compared to the C-29, but for 99% of listening no one would know the difference. C-2300 and C-500 have similar phono stages I'm told and though I love the sound of the C-500 I prefer the SS version. Though the tube section was very enjoyable when driving Snell Phantom speakers with 2301 power amps. I've heard the C-2300 and C-220 and wasn't impressed, though it could have been the Lyra in a VPI Classic and Clear Audio cartridge in a MT-10 I didn't like. I'm a dyed in the wool Dynavector person.. They have the warm sound you are looking for. Reminds me of my Ortofons Sl-15 II and SL 20. The SL 15 was +/- 1.5 db from 20 to 40,000 Hz with a slight dip starting at 500 reaching its max at 3000 and returning to flat at 5,000 hz. The 20 x 2 I'm using now is 20 to 20,000 +/- 1 db with a slight rise in the bass below 100 hz. I want to try an XX2 but its a very pricey.

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Please define "fog." I've never head that expression before. I assume it is some form of distortion.

sheytan,

Your C26 is probably over 40 years old. If it hasn't been restored, it will really benefit from a thorough run through. The phono section is the 'canary in the mineshaft' - much lower levels than the line inputs, and equalization that must be very precise over a very wide range (40 dB!) of boost and cut.

All the components in your 26 drift with age. Carbon resistors absorb moisture and change value. Electrolytic capacitors dry out and change dramatically or fail altogether.

I'm not suggesting that an external preamp isn't a good idea - far from it. It's just that you might also see an overall improvement in the sound for all your sources with a restoration.

Tom