Myth busting. Where to put the money.

Funky54

Super Member
Ok. I don't care to argue or start some clip board, calculator science debate. Here are the facts.

This is not about amps, speakers or interconnects. I'm isolating this conversation to tables, carts and pre-amps.

1) Once you have a decent table (I'll define decent in a sec) put your money into pre-amps and carts. Way bigger bang for your buck both for sound quality and money.

2) Not all preamps at the same price point are the same.

3) Not all carts at the same price point are the same.

4) Synergy of components is important but don't kid yourself, good stuff together is better than bad stuff regardless of specs or price point.

Preamps:
I thought a bunch of money for that silly black box was stupid (preamp) so on-line guys said these $50.00 pre amps where all I needed.... So I waisted $50 after $50 trying 3-4 to learn that they sucked. Don't do that. Your kidding your self if you think they are "good enough". I tried many solid and a few tube. Did shoot outs with multiple table and several systems. Forget synergy here. A good one sounds great on all systems, a cheap one sounds cheap on all systems. I like Yaqin tube preamps. Big Bang for your buck. Much wider sound stage, tightened bottom crisper highs, more detail. I'd rather have a garage sale table and an expensive pre any day.

Tables:
Vintage VS New? Argument new- better science, materials, R&D, old ones are worn out and ready to blow up, money ends up the same after repairs or getting it up to par... Vintage- more for your money, built when vinyl was king and people cared....

Truth, doesn't matter. Good is good. My $25.00 Pioneer PL 530 (automatic direct drive by the way) sounds as good as the most expensive I've compared it too, (RP 9). The Pioneer is used, unserviced, and vintage. My new Roksan Radius 5.2, my buddies 1200 or his ikura Music Hall all sounded good... But the only subpar one was a RP3 that just wasn't as good as the others. With same cart, and pre all sounded good with subtle differences.

Carts:
Carts matter. They don't have to be expensive. And an expensive one doesn't always sound great. If my budget for cart, table and pre was $1000. I'd buy a used $200-300 table and put the rest into the cart and pre. I now have compared a Dynovector 10x5, Roksan Corus Black, Shure m97xe, ortofon 2m blue. Here is where your personality is. Cart and Pre will have more to do with the quality of your sound then the table (if your table is "decent")

So that's my journey. I read some of these facts as I searched. But I also read the oppisite. That tables and tone arms were the most important... I don't think so anymore. Sure they effect sound, but very little. Once you have a quality cart and pre, that work good together.. Any decent table gets you good sound.

Added due to comments:
Roksan Radius 5.2 is a $3000 MSRP table with arm, and is compared to gyro and oracle often on many reviews.

System 1- turntable > Yaqin MS-12b (JJ & vintage RCA's) > Outlaw Audio 950 (seperates in total true analog bypass) > Outlaw755 Amp (200 watt per channel)> tri wired (12guage OX free 11' long per side) > Alon IV (these guys have no problem hitting at 17Hz)

System 2 - Turntable > Aric Audio tube pre > Yamaha Receiver (new flagship receiver don't remember model number) > Monitor Audio silver series towers.

Tables with average street price
-Roksan Radius 5.2, ($2995.00)
-Music Hall Ikura ($1200)
-RP 6
-RP 9
-Tech. 1200 ($250/$400)
-Pioneer PL 530 used (350-$400)

Carts in the mix with street price
-Shure M97Xe ($70.00)
-Roksan corus ($500 - $900)
-Dynavector 10 x 5 ($400-$700)
-Ortofon 2M Blue ($225.00)

Preamps
- A butt load of $50.00 (who cares)
- Cambridge ...570? ($200)
- Aric Audio Tube ($200-$300)
- Yaqin MS12b
- Audio Research Tube ($1200) don't remember the model number

Auxiliary Speakers
B&M Towers don't know model
Wilsons.. Dual 8's with tweets, towers don't know model and DONT want to know price, like $12,000 or something.
 
Last edited:
At the level you're talking about, what you say is probably true. The turntables you discuss are all in the same basic category, except for the RP9. If they made the Pioneer today, they'd probably have to sell it for $799 or something, which is in line with the Music Halls and Regas. They're all in the $500-2000 range new.

However, if you start to get up into the stratosphere, then you might hear something different. I recently listened at a session where we ran the Dr Feickert Firebird turntable against the Brinkmann Oasis. We used identical Air Tight PC-1 cartridges on the tables, and of course plugged them into the same phono stage. Playing whole sides of our test records on each turntable, there was no doubt that the Brinkmann was audibly superior; all three listeners agreed.

Of course, we had over $200K worth of equipment hooked up in that system, and most guys simply can't afford that. I certainly can't. But these differences between turntables do exist.
 
My opinion, which of course is worth exactly what you paid for it, is speakers, speakers, speakers. They're the most durable part of your system outside of the turntable (unless you know you're going to do 2-channel for the rest of your life and never step up to an AVR, in which case most of the portions of the signal path should be considered as such) and also have a great effect on how much enjoyment you get out of the music. You can have the greatest table in the universe but if your speakers are only "OK" then you're going to get "OK" sound.

IMHO there are also definite differences between various amps, preamps, etc. but as an example I think I've shocked a few people with the sound from my "beater" receiver which is an old, un-recapped HK 330c - when you hook it to decent speakers. (just don't turn it up too loud, it's only 30 WPC...)

Now if you've already got speakers that you're perfectly happy with and see no need to upgrade, then yeah, your points are valid.
 
I like this post, and I'm not much of a Rega guy, but I'm struggling with the idea that a RP9 doesn't sound better then a PL 530. If nothing else the tonearm alone seems light years ahead of the Pioneer's.
 
I like this post, and I'm not much of a Rega guy, but I'm struggling with the idea that a RP9 doesn't sound better then a PL 530. If nothing else the tonearm alone seems light years ahead of the Pioneer's.

This may be due to the rest of the system, hard to say. An RP9 would require comparable-level components all the way through to really sing.
 
I'm basically on board with what you've said above. The cart and preamp are very important (especially the cart as it's actually "making" the sound) and you can probably get a whole lot more sound out of a great cart on a reasonable table than a reasonable cart on a great table.

But...

You'll hit a ceiling at some point where your cart now needs a better table to get to the next level. Maybe it'll be rumble, maybe it'll be feedback from a under damped plinth and maybe it'll be colored sound from a cheap arm or cheap bearings. But that ceiling is certainly there and you're kidding yourself if you think the table doesn't make a (big) difference at some point.

I've been there, like many of us on this journey. I love my Yamaha PX-2 and have tried a lot of variations of cart and pre with it. But when I got a GT-2000 a few months ago, the same cart and the same pre made music I had never, ever heard out of the PX-2.

One of the sayings I've become fond of here on AK is "in audio, everything matters". That's doubly true with vinyl sound reproduction.

jblnut
 
Last edited:
This is an interesting thread, and I hope it won't go down in flames.

Each piece of audio gear is like a spoke on a wheel. If you have one that is inferior to the other components, then you will not get the end result you are looking for. When I say each piece, I am talking each individual component including phono cartridges, interconnects, and speaker cables. All it takes is one little component for your sound is not as good as what you expected it to be.

If you do not have equal quality of components in your system, you will never achieve the sound quality you are looking for.
 
My opinion, which of course is worth exactly what you paid for it, is speakers, speakers, speakers. They're the most durable part of your system outside of the turntable (unless you know you're going to do 2-channel for the rest of your life and never step up to an AVR, in which case most of the portions of the signal path should be considered as such) and also have a great effect on how much enjoyment you get out of the music. You can have the greatest table in the universe but if your speakers are only "OK" then you're going to get "OK" sound.

IMHO there are also definite differences between various amps, preamps, etc. but as an example I think I've shocked a few people with the sound from my "beater" receiver which is an old, un-recapped HK 330c - when you hook it to decent speakers. (just don't turn it up too loud, it's only 30 WPC...)

Now if you've already got speakers that you're perfectly happy with and see no need to upgrade, then yeah, your points are valid.

I appreciate that. And that's why my second sentence or so was that this discussion is not about speakers or amps. I'm talking about adding vinyl to a good system.
 
Ok. I don't care to argue or start some clip board, calculator science debate. Here are the facts.

This is not about amps, speakers or interconnects. I'm isolating this conversation to tables, carts and pre-amps.

1) Once you have a decent table (I'll define decent in a sec) put your money into pre-amps and carts. Way bigger bang for your buck both for sound quality and money.

2) Not all preamps at the same price point are the same.

3) Not all carts at the same price point are the same.

4) Synergy of components is important but don't kid yourself, good stuff together is better than bad stuff regardless of specs or price point.

Preamps:
I thought a bunch of money for that silly black box was stupid (preamp) so on-line guys said these $50.00 pre amps where all I needed.... So I waisted $50 after $50 trying 3-4 to learn that they sucked. Don't do that. Your kidding your self if you think they are "good enough". I tried many solid and a few tube. Did shoot outs with multiple table and several systems. Forget synergy here. A good one sounds great on all systems, a cheap one sounds cheap on all systems. I like Yaqin tube preamps. Big Bang for your buck. Much wider sound stage, tightened bottom crisper highs, more detail. I'd rather have a garage sale table and an expensive pre any day.

Tables:
Vintage VS New? Argument new- better science, materials, R&D, old ones are worn out and ready to blow up, money ends up the same after repairs or getting it up to par... Vintage- more for your money, built when vinyl was king and people cared....

Truth, doesn't matter. Good is good. My $25.00 Pioneer PL 530 (automatic direct drive by the way) sounds as good as the most expensive I've compared it too, (RP 9). The Pioneer is used, unserviced, and vintage. My new Roksan Radius 5.2, my buddies 1200 or his ikura Music Hall all sounded good... But the only subpar one was a RP3 that just wasn't as good as the others. With same cart, and pre all sounded good with subtle differences.

Carts:
Carts matter. They don't have to be expensive. And an expensive one doesn't always sound great. If my budget for cart, table and pre was $1000. I'd buy a used $200-300 table and put the rest into the cart and pre. I now have compared a Dynovector 10x5, Roksan Corus Black, Shure m97xe, ortofon 2m blue. Here is where your personality is. Cart and Pre will have more to do with the quality of your sound then the table (if your table is "decent")

So that's my journey. I read some of these facts as I searched. But I also read the oppisite. That tables and tone arms were the most important... I don't think so anymore. Sure they effect sound, but very little. Once you have a quality cart and pre, that work good together.. Any decent table gets you good sound.

Some interesting points here, especially applicable to lower cost systems.

Not everyones journey is the same though. In your example for the $1000 system, putting $200 -$300 into a new table leaves you with $700 for a cartridge and phono stage. Maybe that is the right ratio, I don't claim to know, but I do think the table will need replacing sooner rather than later.

There are variables you have to consider outside of the cost of the equipment. When I help people with their first system I find that good/operational used equipment is a nice way to start. It allows the person to learn and discover good sound before a big investment is made.

More to the point of your post, I think the better cartridges need the better arms that are found on better tables to realize their potential Sure, you can play an $800 cartridge on a $200 table but I would not.
 
Like others said, I find this interesting as well. My system consists of a Debut Carbon (on stock 2m RED) through a Sansui 2000a receiver into Focal 807V's on stands. I love the sound. I'll be upgrading to 2M Blue (though my hifi guy says BRONZE!) but that leads to needing a better pre and then a better amp and.....well I just want to enjoy my records.

But I agree with the OP and with the "spokes on a wheel" analogy.
 
I have a thread about my preamp shootout. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=605873

This is an awesome hobby and a spend some time when I can comparing. I have friends who (like me) like to swap and borrow to compare. Believe me when I say we take a lot of time setting up and comparing. We WANT to know. None of us have big money so when we buy its gotta be right. My buddy changes towers as often as I change my bed sheets (that could be construed as a dig to my hygiene...) it's fun. We even had my 105lbs each mains at his joint to compare on his system. It's a gas.
 
Last edited:
Some interesting points here, especially applicable to lower cost systems.

Not everyones journey is the same though. In your example for the $1000 system, putting $200 -$300 into a new table leaves you with $700 for a cartridge and phono stage. Maybe that is the right ratio, I don't claim to know, but I do think the table will need replacing sooner rather than later.
I'm no expert, but in my opinion that's a valid point. I think people are too scared of used in good condition equipment though. My $25.00 pioneer that I have not put a single dime into has at least 3-400 hours on it since I've owned it. It's still running strong. In fact except for my Roksan table and my Oppo, every peace of gear I have is second hand.

Sure that ratio is gonna float depending on what bargains you find. For $200-$400 you can find techniques, duals, pioneers like 707's, 550's, 514.... You can buy $800-$900 carts used for $400, or $400 carts for $200 used. The Sure m97xe with STOCK stylus is no slouch. It holds its own heads up with the Dynavector and Roksan carts depending on the arm.
 
Last edited:
"Paul Simon wrote a song about this phenomenon." .... I give up. Bridge Over Troubled TTs? Me & Julio down by the Best Buy? Mrs Robinsons big preamps?

I think the OP makes excellent points but I'm sure if you spend enough the equation would change.
 
I'm no expert, but in my opinion that's a valid point. I think people are too scared of used in good condition equipment though. My $25.00 pioneer that I have not put a single dime into has at least 3-400 hours on it since I've owned it. It's still running strong. In fact except for my Roksan table and my Oppo, every peace of gear I have is second hand.

Plus when you buy used, you can pick pieces that have stood the test of time, that is, the vintage models that are well regarded by real users today, not necessarily the ones that the store got the best deal on or the mfgr. Provided lots of demo units to testers.

I'd love to have the scratch to buy/sell/trade a lot and audition a lot of gear personally, but on my budget it is just not happening, so reviews and resale value have to factor in to all purchases, buying well regarded used stuff is a good way to make that happen. My AVR is a factory refurb; that's another way to save money although an AVR depreciates faster than a new Corvette :(

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
I think it would be helpful for the OP to list the $50 preamps that he found to be not so good, might be helpful to steer others away.

As far as labeling these items as Myths or Facts: just remember that what they really are is Opinions.
 
Some interesting points here, especially applicable to lower cost systems.

Not everyones journey is the same though. In your example for the $1000 system, putting $200 -$300 into a new table leaves you with $700 for a cartridge and phono stage. Maybe that is the right ratio, I don't claim to know, but I do think the table will need replacing sooner rather than later.

There are variables you have to consider outside of the cost of the equipment. When I help people with their first system I find that good/operational used equipment is a nice way to start. It allows the person to learn and discover good sound before a big investment is made.

More to the point of your post, I think the better cartridges need the better arms that are found on better tables to realize their potential Sure, you can play an $800 cartridge on a $200 table but I would not.

bobins08, I pretty much agree with you and the other posters here - cart, phono pre, and TT/arm are all important, probably in that order.

Your system looks well thought-out and cost-effective - I'll bet it sounds great!

My own perspective on the cartridge/TT ratio is that the $800 cart / $200 table would likely sound better than a $200 cart / $800 table combo, for the time it takes to save up for a better table. And the really better tables, past the crowded mid-market that has so much borderline-flimsy construction, cost a lot when new. As long as your TT is "decent" - a point emphasized by the OP - then scrimping on the TT for the time being is a good strategy IMO.

So many entry-level and mid-market TT's that come with cartridges short-change the cart. But that makes for a fun cartridge upgrade!

And we really mustn't forget the phono preamp. It's the most important piece of electronics in a vinyl setup, and living with a crappy one for years is a mistake.

I think my allocation of $1000 would be about $300 each for TT, cart, phono-preamp, and spend the extra hundred on a Spin-Clean and stylus cleaner...

Many variations are possible, however, and most are fun!
 
Thanks to the OP for a great post. A lot of R&D went into his thoughtful comments. :thmbsp:
I found that a good cartridge on a good table was the best money spent toward listening pleasure.
 
I think it would be helpful for the OP to list the $50 preamps that he found to be not so good, might be helpful to steer others away.

As far as labeling these items as Myths or Facts: just remember that what they really are is Opinions.

I left it out so that if anyone had one and was happy, I didn't want to make them feel bad. But I see it your way too.

BBE
TCC TC - 750
Art dj pre II
Behringer UFO 202
 
I think my allocation of $1000 would be about $300 each for TT, cart, phono-preamp, and spend the extra hundred on a Spin-Clean and stylus cleaner...

Many variations are possible, however, and most are fun!

That would apply to many levels. For the moderate-cost high-end system, the kind of system I use, you would spend about $3500 for the TT, $3500 for the preamp, and $3000 for the cartridge. Those are list prices. If you can get a deal or go into the used market, that's fine. I don't want to admit how little I paid for my Herron VTPH-2 phono preamp. Now if I could just get a good Koetsu or Shelter from some eBay seller in Hong Kong....
 
Back
Top Bottom