What would be a significant upgrade from a Philips 212?

I've been running a Philips 212 with a Grado ZF-3 cart for about a year and I'm thinking upgrade. It sounds ok, though I have had some dropout issues from time to time. The speed is rock solid and it seems pretty forgiving with sketchy quality records (scratches and slight warps).

But it also feels a little on the flimsy side overall and I've heard that adding a better cart won't do much on this table.

So I've been looking around and seeing what is out there and what is pleasing to look at. But I have zero idea how a lot of them will compare in terms of sound, cart choice, reliability, etc.

My only requirements other than better performance are:

1. Auto stop, preferably lift and return also.
2. Nothing plastic, preferably a wood top like a PL-530, but wood base is ok as well.
3. Not cheap feeling, I'd like some weight and it to feel good to use. (Is this just plain silly?)

I'm thinking used and probably from the 70's. I have no preference for belt drive or direct drive as long as it's quiet while I listen at low volume. I want to stay under $600, but need to sell off some guitar gear before I can afford that, so I have some time for opinions and research.

Edit: Oh yeah. I listen to mostly rock and acoustic music. I'll be using an HK 730 receiver and KLH 6 and 17 Speakers.

Thoughts?

Thorens TD-145. Made In Germany back in the 1970s and has auto-shutoff but not auto arm return. Here is a pic of one with some upgrades. You can find them not restored or upgraded for less and do that later if you like. You can also add a better tonearm later when the upgrade bug hits. Hard to find something new out there I would rather have for less than $1,000.00. I have no connection with this seller, but he has a fabulous reputation.

http://vinylnirvana.com/vintage-turntables-for-sale/thorens-td-145-starter-package-wow/

If you're interested in something that will look good with your HK you might look into the Kenwood KD-770D. I just picked one up and I feel like it meets your criteria. I haven't seen many pop up for sale, I stumbled upon mine.

I'm really wanting an HK 730, that's my next purchase after I get settled into my new place.

212's always felt flimsy but they really aren't and it can use a much better cart than you're presently using.

I agree with rnorton. I heard BIG differences on mine between my Grado F-1 and a Stanton 881 S MKII. Like it was a different table! I hope you are not still running those crappy interconnects that came with it? Just changing those was like a major cartridge upgrade.
Regards,

Thanks for the suggestions so far, I've seen the TD-145 before but not the Kenwood. It does look like a good visual match for the HK. Are both of these much better than the 212 or just favorites of yours. Both are valid, but just want to ask.

As far as the 212 itself, I like it ok, but I'd like to try something else as well. I'm not sure it's worth enough money to actually sell it, I'm just wanting to try something else. This is my first table in 20 years and feel it's a good thing to try a few out and I don't really want to pick an inferior or similar table. I think for the budget I should be able to do better than the $75 212. I also don't really want to drop $200 on a cart for a table I'm not totally sold on.

It's not woodgrain, but a JVC QL-A7 with the black plinth would look sharp next to the HK. Auto-lift. I have one.

Luxman made some pretty nice auto-lift, auto-return and automatic models. PD-277, PD-284, etc.

It isn't woodgrain and comes from a different era of HK, but a T-60 is auto-lift, very nice tonearm. Been there, done that!

Thorens, Luxman and HK (and I guess the Philips too) all seem to have that similar design 'vibe' to them, don't they.

the 212 likes high compliance cartridges and being a 212 owner I would say that it pretty much ticks every box construction wise...except the arm which is a little flimsy..although this is not bad thing...the pivot bearing design is not really up to handling anything much better than a decent elliptical (with the caveat that is a high complaince design..think ortofon om20 at best).
Where the philips does score..is its excellent speed stability, it decent sprung suspension (that actually works) and a general solidity to the plinth and platter.
Every time I look at my 212...I only wish there was a way to strap something like a rega rb250 to it...I'm sure if such an arm could be balanced out with the subchassis...it would be a formidable combination.
Upgrade wise...I would suggest sticking to a well designed manual 3 point suspended (vintage) with a better tonearm...
Vintage suspended Thorens, Ariston, Heybrook ,Systemdek and a few others are well worth looking at ...

I've had a few 312's and always thought they were excellent performers, especially with ADC XLM mark III cartridge and stylus. However I know what you mean about wanting to try something else. They are similar in design to Thorens, of which I still have a TD-160, and like it, but it doesn't have auto lift at the end like the TD-145.

My recommendation, if you want something different, is perhaps a direct drive? I can recommend Denon DP-1200 and Sony PS-X55. They are both really nice, and a pleasure to use. And they should fall under your budget. I also loved the Hitachi PS-48 and the Garrard DD75 which are also direct drive turntables that I have personal experience with and can recommend.

The Thorens shown would need a dust cover and add shipping to that and you are over $600. And I really detest set down dust covers. There just never seems to be the right place to set it down while using the turntable.

Thanks for all of the recommendations. I'll be checking them all out. The Thorens 145 is really intriguing because it looks great, has the auto stop and fits either the HK in the looks dept. but everything is being considered.

Anyone have thoughts on the Pioneer PL-518? Look like the plinth can be re veneered to make it quite a looker.

The dust cover mounts on the back and side of the Thorens, so I don't see any issue lowering it when an LP is playing. Personally, I haven't used a dust cover when an LP is playing for 40 years. Those thing resonate and murk up the sound on many turntables, especially the cheaper plastic covers.

BilboBaggins said:

I've had a few 312's and always thought they were excellent performers, especially with ADC XLM mark III cartridge and stylus. However I know what you mean about wanting to try something else. They are similar in design to Thorens, of which I still have a TD-160, and like it, but it doesn't have auto lift at the end like the TD-145.

My recommendation, if you want something different, is perhaps a direct drive? I can recommend Denon DP-1200 and Sony PS-X55. They are both really nice, and a pleasure to use. And they should fall under your budget. I also loved the Hitachi PS-48 and the Garrard DD75 which are also direct drive turntables that I have personal experience with and can recommend.

The Thorens shown would need a dust cover and add shipping to that and you are over $600. And I really detest set down dust covers. There just never seems to be the right place to set it down while using the turntable.

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I recently got a PL-514 ... quite impressed with the build. I suspect the tonearm is going to be the limiting factor there. They do look good when re-veneered.

I mentioned the HK T60 previously. I've seen a couple with wood veneered plinths.

I had a Pioneer PL-71 previously. Wood veneer plinth. VTA adjustment. But a manual table. I suppose one could put a Q-Up or AT Safety Raiser on something like that:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=7390117&postcount=1

I didn't mention the Yamaha YP-D8 in my avatar. That's an auto-lift / auto-off with VTA adjustment and Micro Seiki built. Madagascar ebony wood veneer:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=7142692&postcount=5

Here's the JVC QL-A7:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=314709&d=1322817981

The Sony PS-X55 has been mentioned. I have one and really quite like it, although I haven't spent much time with it yet. Don't have any good pics of it yet. There are some pretty nice looking Sonys out there ... PS-X65?

Big JVC direct drive with Q-damping tonearm? QL-Y55f?

FYI, if you would like to spend $25 to become an AK subscriber you'll find a Pioneer PL-530 for sale in Bartertown.

Thanks again. I'm still in the process of raising funds(selling other stuff), so I'm not quite ready yet.

But I have come to realize that maybe wood grain is a silly requirement. Also, from the stand point of function, I think I want to not have the potential issue with full auto. So with both of those in mind. What are everyone's thoughts on auto return models that are superior to the 212. Is the SL-Q2 a better table? SL-1700? PL-518? Any others that would look good in this room (photo attached) with an HK 730 next to it?

Try the JVC QL-Y5F, should meet all your requirements. Rosewood plinth, auto start auto return at the end of play. Direct drive, quartz lock, and a tone arm that is electronically controlled, just set the dials and it electronically sets VTF, has electronic damping, also adjustable for VTA which is a plus since some tables during that era didn't provide that capability, and well within your budget leaving you money left over for a good cart.

Unfortunately, most of the turntables I know of would slide off the stand! Mitsubishi made some vertical turntables that might work!

Van_Isle said:

Unfortunately, most of the turntables I know of would slide off the stand! Mitsubishi made some vertical turntables that might work!

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Lol, I have no idea why that photo uploaded sideways.

I really like the big JVC direct drives ... but wonder if the electronically controlled tonearm is just as much, if not more, potential problem than a full-auto 'mechanized' turntable could be? I know I've mentioned some of the Sony's too, which have a lot of automation, but if your skittish on fully-auto ....

There are some good solutions out there for their typical issues .... so perhaps a Technics SL-1400 Mk2 or SL-1700 Mk2? I've seen pics of some that have been pimped out with a gloss-black paint job.

The Thorens TD-145 and TD-160 series always sounded better to me than any of those mentioned. They will also last just about forever if properly maintained. Also, its not that difficult to upgrade to a better tonearm later if you wish. I've known people who started out with a basic 160 or 145 and later added an SME or Sumiko arm that cost as much or more as the original complete turntable new. There are lots of mods available out there to keep improving the basic Thorens that are simply not there with the standard middle range and budget Technics, Sony, Pioneer, models. Now something like a Technics SL-1200 series and the models above that are a different animal. They are manual, but it doesn't bother me since I have been using nothing but manual tables since 1977.

fucanay said:

Thanks again. I'm still in the process of raising funds(selling other stuff), so I'm not quite ready yet.

But I have come to realize that maybe wood grain is a silly requirement. Also, from the stand point of function, I think I want to not have the potential issue with full auto. So with both of those in mind. What are everyone's thoughts on auto return models that are superior to the 212. Is the SL-Q2 a better table? SL-1700? PL-518? Any others that would look good in this room (photo attached) with an HK 730 next to it?

Click to expand...

An upper model Denon DD automatic with the Rosewood plinth would be a terrific choice and be a nice fully automatic.