VPI HW19 Speed

j_sunne

Active Member
How often should the belt be changed? Mine is at least 3 years old, as long as I've had the table, and maybe as much as 30 yrs old. My MKII is running ~1% slow and I'm wondering if that's a possible fix? The acrylic/lead platter spins freely, although I detect the slightest bit of wobble in comparison to the plinth. I'm guessing that "could" make the platter geometrically larger.
 
When it falls off you are a couple of years overdue. Trust me I know. Since you didn't mention that the belt is not that old. I don't think Mk IIs are 30 years old, my Mk I (not a designation) isn't that old.

Every three years is a good estimate. If it is not turning too slowly you have good grip. Maybe replace the belt and see if it makes a speed difference. If it does you needed it. If not then keep the belt for later.
 
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It slips when started, so I spin it to get it going -usually while dusting with a carbon fiber brush. But it's not falling off loose. I have boiled it and retalced a few times the past 3 years and it still runs a smidgen slow. It is only $30, so worth a try. I thought the aluminum pully might have worn, but the platter spindle has no wear, and obviously, 45 would be the right speed...it's not. Sometimes the obvious is the answer I guess! (unless my power is coming in at 59Hz each evening)

BTW, I looked it up and the MKII was made in 1985. So the belt is possibly 25yrs old!
 
An old belt might contribute to some slippage in the beginning, but would not contribute to a consistent incorrect speed. What causes a small but consistent error is a slightly incorrect diameter of the two items inside the belt...pulley and platter, pulley and subplatter, whichever...or a change in the thickness of the belt from the original. As an example, changing from round to flat belts slows down the platter just slightly because it reduces the effective radius of the pulley by relatively more than it does the subplatter or platter...sort of like moving the chain on a bike.
 
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Bob and I are in agreement. Even my new, 1 year old, belt slips a little when starting, it has to as the platter will not come up to speed immediately.

I have replaced my belt twice since buying my table about 1993. It was the first replacement that fell off. So your belt isn't likely 25 years old.

But my HW-19 (could be called Mk I) does run a little slowly. I have a PLC on it and it is fine. It was running about 1.5% slow. I estimated 1.5% using the VPI strobe disk. An SDS, PLC or something like that is one way of making up that error. Another is using a PS Audio Regenerator and changing the frequency a little. I'm doing that now.

Trust me, your power is just fine.
 
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Basically, there is nothing one can do, short of a VPI PLC, or newer SDS.
(or other similar speed controllers)

I'll explain later in my post what can help alleviate it some.

The major reason the error is there, is no pulley, nor platter can ever be perfectly machined to be a dead on 33-1/3, or 45 rpm. Ever so slight diameter errors cause this to happen.

My own HW-19, either in its original jr form, or with the upgraded MK-IV Platter ran slightly slow until I got the SDS.

Some tips that might lessen these errors.
One, yes do buy a new Belt, and to help make that belt last as long as possible, it makes sense to assist the Platter upon start up to grasp the Record Clamp after it is properly clamped to the record, and assist the platter to come up to speed. It only takes a second to do.

I'm lately using one of the newfangled black Belts for the HW-19 bought from LP Gear. So far, it's been about a year, and the Belt is holding up very well.

Platter, and Motor Lubrication.

Per the VPI manual, the Hurst Motor can be lubed with one small drop of 40 weight oil.
I would suspect an oil such as Mobil 1 5-30, or 10-30 should also work fine as well. Insure you place that small drop of oil right at the lowest point of the Motor Shaft to insure it goes where it needs to.

The Platter bearing is something that needs to be always periodically lubed, and again, the Mobil 1 5-30 or 10-30 will work very well for this application.

If this Bearing Shaft, it's Bearing Ball, and Thrust Plate that is at the bottom of the well has been neglected, the surface contact areas of both can increase in size, and I suppose this could cause a slight increase in drag, as well as increase bearing noise, and decease speed stability.

The .250" Bearing Ball can be replaced if any signs of wear are present, either with a stock Metal Ball from VPI, or a harder, smoother Ceramic Bearing from someone like Boca Bearing.

Delving further, the Thrust Plate may also be still available from VPI? Of this I am unsure? These other items to look at would be cheaper fixes than the PC, or SDS, and perhaps should be looked into first, and see what the results are? I hope this helps. Mark
 
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The platter shaft has no signs of wear. The platter has no scraping sounds and spins for a very very long time when I give it a good spin, so I don't think there's drag.

Thinking again of the slight wobble, it would actually run fast if a wobble made the geometry of the platter's circle a bit bigger, so that's not it.

I put 2 layers of teflon tape on the pully to get the speed correct, but even that slight overlap of tape was audible as rumble. Maybe I could increase the diameter of the platter with something, shrinkwrap???....or just live with the speed difference. There's no way I'm spending $1K for an SDS. The table and a ProJect 9cc (I replaced it's Sumiko MMT (Jelco)) cost me $450 net. I've been combing DIY forums for a way to build a frequency generator to pump out the 61Hz I guess I need, but, damn, shouldn't a table play the right speed? It's not like I suffer from perfect pitch, but the semitone pitch change has been noticable ever since I discovered it!
 
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It's possible the motor pulley has worn slightly. Replacements are available from VPI, and might not be a bad idea on a 'table that's 25 years old.

Also, markd51's comments RE: lubrication are very valid. IIRC, VPI recommends lubing the bearing and spindle every 6 months. Mobil 1 5W-30 is the lubricant that is most often recommended, and again IIRC, is even endorsed by VPI. Be aware, if the bearing has not been cleaned and lubed lately, the old lube in there may have dried and gotten sticky. When I upgraded my HW-19 from Mk III to Mk IV, the bearing well and bearing (purchased second hand) were pretty gunked up. It took a good bit of cleaning and more than a dozen Q-tips, but I got all the old lube out, installed a new ceramic bearing (they are ridiculously cheap from Boca Bearing), applied some Mobil 1, and she runs like a top.
 
Bob: My belt loooks like that. I guess the belt is not 25 yrs old then. It always looks great after being placed in hot water for a couple of minutes...dried then ready for talc.

2 recommendations for a ceramic bearing.....my next upgrade. Especially if cheap. I like to spend the limited money my wife allows me to spend on my hobbies on vinyl.

Tedrick, when I bought this table the oil in the table was like taffy. I cleaned it out with mineral spirits and relubed with Mobil1. I don't think the table was ever used much. The manual I have doesn't mention lubing the motor so I'll look into that.
I was ready to blame abrasive talc wearing down the aluminum pully on the MKII, but the 45 position is just as slow.
 
. . . IIRC, VPI recommends lubing the bearing and spindle every 6 months. Mobil 1 5W-30 is the lubricant that is most often recommended, and again IIRC, is even endorsed by VPI. . . .

Remembering I have a HW-19 (not really a Mk anything) my manual says very definitely that the bearing never needs lubrication. I am betting after my table was made they realized that was a mistake and they have rescinded that part of the manual.
 
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I wouldn't call the Boca Grade 3 Ceramic Bearing "cheap", as one Bearing will cost you about $7.50 or so, including the shipping to your locale.Grade 3 is the highest grade.

It means the surface is smooth to 3 millionths of an inch. Grade 5 is 5 millionths inch smoothness. $7.50 though shouldn't break one's bank account. lol

Yes, in my HW-19 Jr Manual (circa 1997) is does suggest the Hurst Motor being oiled periodically. I'll assume whatever model, they all used the exact same Hurst 600rpm AC Synchronous Motor.

Making a AC Generator that will vary line frequency in such small amount accurately I don;t think will be an easy task.

It won't be as simple to then adjust a speed controller to say that 61hz, or 62hz, will get you precise 33-1/3 speed. The VPI SDS is adjustable in .01hz increments, and as an example, I needed exactly 61.17hz to achieve dead on speed with a KAB Strobe Disc.

With a good 13 years of use on my own HW-19, I've never noted any speed changes over the years, it was always just typically slightly slow. I've had the KAB Strobe Disc as long as I've owned the Table. I sort of doubt Pulley Changes are going to net you much difference? The only differences that might be then noted, would be a slight difference in Pulley diameter in manufacturing. With that said, a replacement, even though new, could possibly net even greater speed error? It's a crap shoot at best.

I was able to get a new in box SDS (not B Stock) for $750 shipped, but that was before the price increase about a year back. The SDS does more than just set speed, it is as well a AC Filtration Device, and also ramps down voltage to the Motor, thus the lower voltage lets the motor run quieter as well. Mark
 
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I wouldn't call the Boca Grade 3 Ceramic Bearing "cheap", as one Bearing will cost you about $7.50 or so, including the shipping to your locale.Grade 3 is the highest grade. . .

Even I would think $7.50 was a cheap upgrade, maybe pricey for a ball, but still cheap to me. And, Mark, you know what a cheap mother I am.

. . . Yes, in my HW-19 Jr Manual (circa 1997) is does suggest the Hurst Motor being oiled periodically. I'll assume whatever model, they all used the exact same Hurst 600rpm AC Synchronous Motor. . .

I finally found some machine oil, sewing machine oil, and I can give mine some lubrication. Where is the next question?

Making a AC Generator that will vary line frequency in such small amount accurately I don;t think will be an easy task. . .

I think there are other VFAC (Variable Frequency AC) devices out there. But I don't know which. Many, many tables now have outboard drives and the motors are all set to run on 60 Hz. You might find one that is not so expensive.

. . . I sort of doubt Pulley Changes are going to net you much difference? . . .

Come to think of it, the rubber belt wearing a metal pulley doesn't make sense.
 
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The simplest approach I've seen to control motor speed is playing a sine wave though an amp. But it's going to need to have a clean output and isn't likely as easy as it seems. I go though phases where I get all preoccupied that it runs slow, then forget about it. It seems that running just a tad slow isn't unusual. I can just play my PL-630 when speed accuracy becomes a concern (when it's finished). I'll give the bearing a shot, replace the belt and live with it. Any attempt at making the platter or pully larger will probably just degrade the sound quality.
 
The simplest approach I've seen to control motor speed is playing a sine wave though an amp. But it's going to need to have a clean output and isn't likely as easy as it seems. I go though phases where I get all preoccupied that it runs slow, then forget about it. It seems that running just a tad slow isn't unusual. I can just play my PL-630 when speed accuracy becomes a concern (when it's finished). I'll give the bearing a shot, replace the belt and live with it. Any attempt at making the platter or pulley larger will probably just degrade the sound quality.

I think the problem is the accuracy of your source feeding the amp. Mark said, "I needed exactly 61.17hz to achieve dead on speed . . . ."

You probably will spend some cash on a source with that accuracy.
 
Basically, there is nothing one can do, short of a VPI PLC, or newer SDS.
(or other similar speed controllers)

I'll explain later in my post what can help alleviate it some.

The major reason the error is there, is no pulley, nor platter can ever be perfectly machined to be a dead on 33-1/3, or 45 rpm. Ever so slight diameter errors cause this to happen.

My own HW-19, either in its original jr form, or with the upgraded MK-IV Platter ran slightly slow until I got the SDS.

Some tips that might lessen these errors.
One, yes do buy a new Belt, and to help make that belt last as long as possible, it makes sense to assist the Platter upon start up to grasp the Record Clamp after it is properly clamped to the record, and assist the platter to come up to speed. It only takes a second to do.

I'm lately using one of the newfangled black Belts for the HW-19 bought from LP Gear. So far, it's been about a year, and the Belt is holding up very well.

Platter, and Motor Lubrication.

Per the VPI manual, the Hurst Motor can be lubed with one small drop of 40 weight oil.
I would suspect an oil such as Mobil 1 5-30, or 10-30 should also work fine as well. Insure you place that small drop of oil right at the lowest point of the Motor Shaft to insure it goes where it needs to.

The Platter bearing is something that needs to be always periodically lubed, and again, the Mobil 1 5-30 or 10-30 will work very well for this application.

If this Bearing Shaft, it's Bearing Ball, and Thrust Plate that is at the bottom of the well has been neglected, the surface contact areas of both can increase in size, and I suppose this could cause a slight increase in drag, as well as increase bearing noise, and decease speed stability.

The .250" Bearing Ball can be replaced if any signs of wear are present, either with a stock Metal Ball from VPI, or a harder, smoother Ceramic Bearing from someone like Boca Bearing.

Delving further, the Thrust Plate may also be still available from VPI? Of this I am unsure? These other items to look at would be cheaper fixes than the PC, or SDS, and perhaps should be looked into first, and see what the results are? I hope this helps. Mark



Do you mind if I use your above justification for a speed box when the next time someone craps on Pro-Ject owners for suggesting the use of one as an upgrade?
 
I think the problem is the accuracy of your source feeding the amp. Mark said, "I needed exactly 61.17hz to achieve dead on speed . . . ."

You probably will spend some cash on a source with that accuracy.

That's actually easy bit. It's as simple as just playing back a sine wave.... CD or some solid state device. I think my biggest problem is producing and amplifying it cleanly. I picked up an NAD 2600a on CL to use in such an experiment but liked it too much to just use it as a TT power source so wound up recapping it.
 
REALLY ? ? ? You have a CD with 61.17 Hz recorded on it??????? I don't!

Edit: A CD is not a viable source, I should have known that! It took a night's sleep to rethink it.

Even if you have a CD player that has pitch control, they used to make them, the pitch control will not be accurate to 1/100th of a 60 Hz signal. Whatever the heck that might be.
 
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The least expensive option would be the VPI PLC, and these pop up from time to time, on audiogon, and as well ebay. This unit is simpler, but will serve the same purpose of getting accurate speed. It is also a power line conditioner, hence the name "PLC".

No ramp down voltage feature though. Mark
 
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