Inevitable inner groove wear on rock records.

The old days....

Ken Boyd said:

We can all be quite please that a spinning LP has quite a bit of centrifugal force, that helped eliminate the vast amount of vinyl with burn spots due to a hot seed which popped out of the bong. Just imagine how many LP's would have been held worthless.

Most classical listeners would not have to worry about such things. I have to disagree with the other poster who thinks classical listeners purchased LP's to sit on shelves to impress the Jones's, sounds like a class war assumption to me.

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It wasn't a class war assumption. Sheesh! First off, why does everything become right vs left out of nowhere these days. There are posers in this world. Find a pristine first Pressing of Rubber Soul, just try it....then look at any Classical or Jazz from the same era— it will almost always be in near mint, vs the most popular records which have mostly been played out. i have heard Metalheads rail for an hour how they love classical, but cannot name one Symphony. It has not a thing to do with class systems, it has everything to do with desire of perception. Many may not have been around for these releases, but i can recall a bunch of older folks buying Longines Symphonette in droves around 69-70.

Does anyone recall at all that in the early 70s, it was a bit of a question if the powers that be would allow Rock and Roll to continue...at least in the south? Many of us felt like it was a battle to dig in for, because we didn't want country. Then you have the inbetweeners, such as my Momma, who loves the Beatles, but didn't dare let my Grandparents know. Many of the inbetweeners also wanted that aire of sophistication, thus, boxed 3 LP Symphonic releases. She didn't buy any of those, but we had a fair number of friends that would have these LPs on their shelves...ok, enough on that.

As far as the other assertion....hey, when did you last see a seed, and who did your tray cleaning in the first place?

perfect example

woodj said:

Bunch of musicians I knew played the same track over and over trying to "get it right."

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...and Bingo was his name-o.:tresbon:

Ever thought about it? Classical lovers usually had better equipment than most others, and usually owned by adults and they took better care of their collections. Likewise, most of the easy listening and adult pop crowd too.

KentTeffeteller said:

Ever thought about it? Classical lovers usually had better equipment than most others, and usually owned by adults and they took better care of their collections. Likewise, most of the easy listening and adult pop crowd too.

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Definitely. I used to love to go to stereo shops to listen to equipment or help a friend pick out a component system, speakers, or whatever. The salesmen would tell us to bring records that we liked.

As we did our listening, more than a few times we heard sneers and snickers, "why bother when you listen to that music", from the audiophiles in the high end rooms listening to classical. These guys bought the high end turntables, the teenagers started with cheap Garrard and BSR changers .... save your money for a year and upgrade to a PL 12D or an AR XA. Even if you did the upgrade most likely the person would screwed up the alignment or play with a worn stylus. Most teenagers did not have the knowledge to keep their turntable in top form. Using a Disk Washer was a sign you had a clue back then.

Bottom line is the Classical listeners had the funds and the better gear. Add in that the teenagers played their records over and over.

hamsterdam said:

It wasn't a class war assumption. Sheesh! First off, why does everything become right vs left out of nowhere these days. There are posers in this world. Find a pristine first Pressing of Rubber Soul, just try it....then look at any Classical or Jazz from the same era— it will almost always be in near mint, vs the most popular records which have mostly been played out. i have heard Metalheads rail for an hour how they love classical, but cannot name one Symphony. It has not a thing to do with class systems, it has everything to do with desire of perception. Many may not have been around for these releases, but i can recall a bunch of older folks buying Longines Symphonette in droves around 69-70.

Does anyone recall at all that in the early 70s, it was a bit of a question if the powers that be would allow Rock and Roll to continue...at least in the south? Many of us felt like it was a battle to dig in for, because we didn't want country. Then you have the inbetweeners, such as my Momma, who loves the Beatles, but didn't dare let my Grandparents know. Many of the inbetweeners also wanted that aire of sophistication, thus, boxed 3 LP Symphonic releases. She didn't buy any of those, but we had a fair number of friends that would have these LPs on their shelves...ok, enough on that.

As far as the other assertion....hey, when did you last see a seed, and who did your tray cleaning in the first place?

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You asked the question, and from past threads it seemed to be going that way, sorry if I misunderstood it.

I can say all the classical music lovers I knew, a few, played their music, they didn't buy it with intentions of it looking good on a shelf. My father was one and the rest of the family was not into classical we all like the more popular music of the time. So it didn't get played often only when we were all not home. I recall one summer when we all went on vacation for the three months when we got home my dad had purchased a new stereo to listen to music, it really was the only major purchase that I can recall other than cars up to that time. He liked his Wagner and Tchaikovsky, still does as I always keep my eyes out for records and CD's for him.

My older sisters would be playing the Beatles on their crappy stereo, possibly why finding a good copy is impossible, if you saw how they treated records. I treated all my like gold, but I didn't care for the Beatles, I was more into Rock which I always thought of the Beatles as pop music.

My Assumptions

I've always assumed that if Classical records are found in NM condition all the time ... they just weren't played much or only once ... Occam's razor.

Knew folks from my youth who owned Classical records but never played them. Why buy them? I assumed to impress other people with their taste.

I've found many Rock LPs that were mint also ... but it's always unpopular albums or artists. Record bins are not overflowing with mint or sealed Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd vinyl as a common example.

As a anecdotal side note: a retired school teacher (who liked and played Classical Music all the time) donated his entire collection to my Mother. All the records were well played (Vg+ at best .. most were VG .. snap crackle pop) ... she gave them to me and I had to put them all in the dumpster ... none were worth keeping from my perspective.

bobins08 said:

Most teenagers did not have the knowledge to keep their turntable in top form.

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Sadly, the same was (and is) true of most adults.

Impossible to find a decent original Led Zeppelin II on the Used Market

Must have been the drugs

And also what they were played on. When I was a youngster, most of the people I attended school with (which was a Special Needs school) had cheapie compact systems, portables, and consoles ranging from cheapie to decent. I was the only student who owned separates. And kitbuilt mine in 1973, at 9 years of age. In Oak Ridge, TN. When I got mainstreamed to high school in 1982, many of the high schoolers did own separate components (Oak Ridge's government plants had lots of Ph.D engineers, physicists, and scientists.)

I still have many mint rock records from the 70's. I simply did not have the equipment to play them on but I bought them for the day I would. Then came other formats and these remained in storage. It would be 35 years before I had a tt worthy. Now, with so many other records acquired over the last few years, they are still sitting on the shelf.

I believe the wear was caused by several factors:

Improper anti-skate settings.
Dirty records.
Dirty stylus.
Improper cartridge alignment.
Improper VTA.
Improper azimuth.

Combine that with being played lots and you have extreme record wear.

Interesting points. Excellent thread too.

It's such a shame that so many rock records were ruined, but I'm sure future use was the last thing on listener's minds back then. I suppose it makes finding a cleaner pressing all the more better, but new pressings are just too expensive.


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WaynerN said:

I believe the wear was caused by several factors:

Improper anti-skate settings.
Dirty records.
Dirty stylus.
Improper cartridge alignment.
Improper VTA.
Improper azimuth.

Combine that with being played lots and you have extreme record wear.

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Not to mention the nickel (5c) on top of the headshell

In addition to the above mentioned factors, records originally purchased for one collection will have more wear as the buyers' playing equipment will be poorer and the records will be played relatively more, no matter the type of music. My most worn records Miles's "Milestones" and the MJQ's "No Sun in Venice", bought in college and played many times with cheap equipment, are much noisier than later purchased jazz (Blue Note/ Atlantic) and rock records bought after I had left school and purchased my Fisher 400, AR 4X/Dual 1009 sk system and owned many hundreds of records, so each would of course be played much less in addition to being played on good equipment, compounding the reduction of the degree of wear.

Condorsat said:

I've always assumed that if Classical records are found in NM condition all the time ... they just weren't played much or only once ... Occam's razor.

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I've always assumed this as well. I've bought Classical box sets at goodwill where the records don't seem to have ever been removed from their sleeves.

As a longtime Beatles collector, I have seen some pretty miserable looking albums. I have recently started to get into classical and I am *shocked* at how nice these albums are! For only $1, I can buy pristine classical albums at Amoeba in Hollywood. I guess the classical albums didn't spend their lives being used as frisbees at a frat party, or having a needle scraped across it when a drunken friend fell against the turntable!

I'v examined records of all music types and there is no guarantee that the condition will be either good or bad just based on the music type. The use of substandard equipment, mishandling and poor maintenance doesn't discriminate when it comes to rock, jazz, classical records.

understood, however..

Ken Boyd said:

You asked the question, and from past threads it seemed to be going that way, sorry if I misunderstood it.

I can say all the classical music lovers I knew, a few, played their music, they didn't buy it with intentions of it looking good on a shelf. My father was one and the rest of the family was not into classical we all like the more popular music of the time. So it didn't get played often only when we were all not home. I recall one summer when we all went on vacation for the three months when we got home my dad had purchased a new stereo to listen to music, it really was the only major purchase that I can recall other than cars up to that time. He liked his Wagner and Tchaikovsky, still does as I always keep my eyes out for records and CD's for him.

My older sisters would be playing the Beatles on their crappy stereo, possibly why finding a good copy is impossible, if you saw how they treated records. I treated all my like gold, but I didn't care for the Beatles, I was more into Rock which I always thought of the Beatles as pop music.

Click to expand...

Of course everything doesn't fall into the same category. There are always exceptions. I also agree with the condorsat that at goodwill, ebay, flea markets, the best quality you usually find are Classical and some Jazz, and i've found nm-mint 99% of the time. It may be they thought it was something they would enjoy, but learned differently.

i'd still love to know how you saw some burgeoning class warfare rant coming from me. Did you review all my earlier posts for some sort of narrative, cuz i can tell you, personally, there are maybe 5 or 6 people i talk with often enough, that i rarely even notice who responds to my threads or posts. Not that i am stand-offish, it's just something i haven't paid attention to. Some i know because i bought a TT from one, and others help me with repair or sourcing parts, and i don't even seek out their previous posts.

i know that people also bought them for enjoyment— me, for one. Still, there is a difference between a well cared for record, and one that is unplayed, or perhaps played less than a dozen times. As condorsat noted, they are found with great frequency, maybe by just some of us, but they are the least played records i ever buy or find, aside from very expensive anomalies, or new.

As i stated in an earlier thread, i look at these under the little ikea gooseneck led that re-defines visual mint by a large margin, and i've found not even a nick...unlike Reprise/Sire 78-82, who seemed to have a policy of including as many bubbles as possible in their vinyl. i hope that ikea lamp mention didn't connote class warfare. So please put the safety back on your argument rifle, hoss, there is no need. This is music not politics. There are, i am sure, political forums if you want to get your torch and pitchfork out. For me....this ain't the place, and i need that aggravation like i need another tumor.

Be well,

—dave