Onkyo Preamp P-303 may be as good as EW 700C

theophile

Pheasant Plucker
Subscriber
Count me surprised.:yes:
I got this Onkyo P-303 preamp on Friday.I wanted to audition it because of the good reputation it has for it's phono-stage.I've initially been using it's phono-stage via the tape-outs into the EW Kenwood 700C.Used this way it proved to have a high-achieving phono-stage.Very nice indeed.
Now although I have the desire to audition it this way,there's no way I'm not going to try it out as a preamp in it's own right.Therefore last night I swapped the leads from the EW 700C to the P-303.
Straight away I felt that it was very capable.Today when I came home I put on the Japanese pressing of Pink Floyd "The Wall".It was the low-level detail which had me taking notice.The only preamp which does that level of low-level detail in my experience is the EW 700C.They both have an ability to dredge-out low-level detail like nothing I've ever heard before.The phono-stage on the P-303 is either phenomenal(which didn't quite evidence itself via the tape-out sockets,though I'll revisit that),or the line stage(which I haven't tried yet),but I'm glad I took a punt on this unassuming minimalist little preamp.It's a David amongst Goliaths with collosal reputations.:yes:
As a straight preamp I much prefer it to the Yamaha C2x.No contest.Comparing the C2x's phono-stage via it's tape-outs to the P-303's phono-stage under the same conditions produces a close result.Via the preamp-outputs proper,the P-303 phono-stage leaves the C2x in the dust.:scratch2:
To be fair to what I just posted,I'm going to go back to the C2x's preamp-out proper and give it another run.It's too good a piece to not let it speak for itself in it's own defence.:yes:
So preliminary results are that the Onkyo P-303 phono-stage,used via it's proper preamp-out is a formidable all-in-one phono capable preamp.:thmbsp:
Not that easy to find.:sigh:
 
I'll be interested in revisiting your listening evaluations.
Haven't heard the big Kenwood preamp, but know the C-2x.
Have always been fond of Onkyo gear, but have also believed preamps have improved over time. The Onkyo was current when albums were king, so that does show well for vintage-era gear.
 
Bully,
I'm almost spoilt for choice at the moment with regard to bloody great quality preamps to choose from.None of them are slouches.All of them are high quality.A couple of them manage to sound considerably better.
The sticking point is that so far I can only say that the Onkyo has distinguished itself via it's phono-stage.The EW Kenwood 700C elevated the performance of the Dynavector P-75 phono stage,but isn't anywhere near as distinguished via it's own inbuilt phono stage(at least with my front-end components).
The EW 700C gave me a new standard to by which to evaluate just how good analogue stereo is, because frankly,I never heard anything sound as good as what I'm listening to here in my living room anywhere.This sublime level of performance from the 700C,is in combination with the Dynavector P-75 phono stage only.
All the other preamps in my home(Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid,Kenwood Basic C2,Yamaha C2x and almost there,but just missing-out My unmodified Kenwood 700C)aren't in the same league as the EW 700C
Now the Onkyo comes along with it's inbuilt phono stage and takes me right back to the effect that the EW 700C/Dynavector combination has on me.
The comparison which is begging to be made is the Dynavector P-75 fed into the Onkyo P-303.:yes:
I do intend to revisit the C2x.Like I said there are no slouches here.Think of it as a gathering of extremely gifted human beings,amongst whom are two sheer geniuses.:thmbsp:
 
WOW, the Onkyo P-303 preamp must be great for you to brag on it like that.:scratch2:
I looked up the P-303, kind of a plain jane looking thing ain't it. But that doesn't mean it isn't great.
 
Epoch,
I haven't got an allegiance to any particular brands.Matter of fact I'd really like to cherry-pick the best vintage products at each place in the system chain regardless of whom the originating manufacturer is.
Just going on the sound quality I've been rewarded with at present(compared with what I've heard over the last 30 of being an appreciator of same),I've come pretty close to nailing that ambition.
Just a little more about the P-303.Last night I pulled-out Hendrix's "Electric Ladyland" after wallowing in his blues jammin' "Voodoo Child"(not the slight return)at about 105 dB(ya gotta love those Altecs:thmbsp: ),I listened to the track"Gypsie Eyes".In this track there is a lot of out-of-phase information in the bass.The Onkyo lept onto the o-o-p information like a Rottweiler onto the jugular.Ripping tearing(oops!Got carried away).What a great phono-stage.
Trouble is I want to listen to both the EW 700C and the P-303.
I'm torn.Truly spoilt for choice.:scratch2:
 
Glad the onkyo sounds as good as you suspected it to. That review you linked us to where the guy said it was 'phenom' perked my ears up.
I immediatly googled p-303 and found a shop 1/2 mile from my house that had one for sale- I called ...just sold.
These older preamps are not liked by alot of people not as clean and clear,,, somehow detail and body comes through just fine.
Sounds like you found a gem.
 
Matel,
When a guy who was a component designer at one of the esteemed Japanese audio manufacturers singles-out a product for attention,it's worth while seeing just what that item has to offer.
Here's the post I'm referring to:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=154477&postcount=14

It's a gorgeous sounding,minimalist full function,only one line input(!)with tape in and out.No headphone socket.No tone controls.A volume control,balance and buttons for tape/source,tuner/phono and MM/MC.
No frills.This is about the sound quality.
 
This has been an excellent thread, thank you.....I especially appreciate the mention regarding the "cherry pick" method as I use it myself. Let your ears decide, not a brand name or badge...
I am searching for another preamp at present so I will have to look into this Onkyo as well. Right now I am having very good success with a Yamaha A-1 integrated as a phono preamp, hooked up direct with the "Disk" function on. But I would like to free up the A-1 to use as a stand alone, as it is such a great amp in itself...
Bill
 
Bill,
My philosophy is;I don't want to know second-hand.
I'll acknowledge that the senses are fallible.System balance and synergy also mean that no item gets auditioned in a "vacuum".However first-hand knowledge beats any amount of hearing about it from others.
The downside is that I've a small pile of very good preamps just sitting around here.
The upside is a stunner of a system and an education.
I realise my accolades to the EW 700C-Dyna P-75 combo and to the P-303 both end up as praise for my analogue front-end,and to the amps/speakers also.
The singular reason I feel confident in my assesment of these items is that they are clearly able to step things up a few rungs higher than the other preamps I have,and the difference isn't subtle,therefore anyone could hear it.
The Onkyo is changing as it burns-in,the bass is stronger,more evident.
I'm getting the feeling that the Onkyo won't scale the heights of the EW 700C.The Onkyo's depth of the soundstage is good, but the 700C turned the Altecs into soundstage and image champs(that's quite a feat,I promise).
I don't listen in the heat of the day(temps here 94-98 F),and I worked tonight 'til too late to give another listen.So tomorrow I'll chain myself to my system for the arduous task of having my ears ravished by these great pieces of gear.:tears: :D
 
I really think the preamp has the biggest effect on the sound going to the speaker systems.
My first preamp was the Kenwood Basic C2 with an Onkyo M-5060 amp. I liked the C2 so much I bought another one! Though I have gone through several preamps since, I still have a C2 because it has such a nice phono section.
I haven't had an Onkyo preamp, but have had three Onkyo receivers, and they have great preamps for receivers.
 
I see that you are using a very nice cartridge. Have you tried this pre with both MM & MC. :scratch2: .....(For my birthday I think that I may treat myself to a Denon DL 110, or perhaps an Ortofon OM 20.)
 
Bill,
No I can't really test the MM phono section.All comments about the phono stage apply to MC.
The P-303 is almost a dedicated phono preamplifier.Two separate inputs for MM/MC,switchable from front panel.Only one line input marked "tuner".
Ununsual preamp,designed not for convenience but for maximum phono performance(with a nod to line input duty).:scratch2:
 
Bully,
I kinda think of the preamp as the fulcrum on a see-saw.
All else rests on it's performance.

How well the preamp deals with incoming signal.
How unmolested it passes that signal along to the poweramp.

It occupies a crucial role.
The other preamps I named(Transcendent Sound,Kenwood Basic,Yamaha C2x)are very fine preamps.So much so that sonically they differ only slightly.All very noise free,smooth,detailed.Apparently all one could want.
The Kenwood 700C(non EW)lifts the preformance bar not with slightly different sound,but a huge lift in performance.
The EW 700C has changed what I thought was possible from analogue stereo.
The Onkyo P-303 may not quite be as accomplished as the EW 700C but as a MC phono-capable preamp(my cartridge is unsuitable for the 700C MM phono),it's the best I have in house.
 
I know Tom personally. If he says it is good, it is good.

Hardrian333 said:
Hi guys,

Maybe I can answer some of the questions regarding Onkyo. I started working for Onkyo in 1975 right out of college with a degree in electrical engineering. Originally when I started there, their product line up was the TX220, TX330, TX440, TX560, TX670, and TS500 and a bunch of speakers that were AR wanna be's. To be blunt, the TX220, TX330, and the TX440 used power modules with limited slew rate and frequency response and were dull and sounded pretty awful. I don't know if you know the history of Onkyo but in Japan, they were known as Osaka Onkyo and started as a speaker manufacturer. They originally came to USA as a joint venture between themselves and Mitsubishi and failed miserably at selling Onkyo speakers. Mitsubishi and Onkyo parted ways after about 6 months after I was hired and Onkyo started concentrating on achieving better sounding receivers and tuners. The first attempt was the Onkyo T-4055 tuner which had an awesome review in Absolute Sound. After the review came out I remember that we never could keep the tuners in stock. When we were ready to start conceiving the new receiver line, we came up with a different look than the last product line as it became known as the TX2500 and TX4500 (We didn't have enough budget to develop a complete line then). It's hard to imagine but this was Onkyo's last ditch effort to survive in the audio world and they put all their marbles into these 2 receivers. Onkyo was definitely ahead of its time because they realized the importance of a good phono preamplifier even when their older separates were made (A-7022 and A-7055). If you compare the transient response of the phono preamps in those units to their peers, it was immediately obvious. In our earlier test, we would inject a pulse followed by a since wave and check the dilation of the pulse into the sine wave and the phono preamps were outstanding! The TX2500 and TX4500 incorporated these design parameters so their phono section sounded remarkably good (This is preHolman's white paper of phono preamp TIM). We also upgraded the analog tuners. The TX2500 had the servo lock tuning and the TX4500 had the quartz lock tuning. The quartz lock tuning worked remarkably well and the tuning accuracy was only limited to the quartz time base in each unit. Keep in mind that this is predigital tuner days for receivers. Then we concentrated on the power amplifiers. The power amplifier section of the receivers rivaled Harman Kardon's receivers by achieving low tilt figures for the low frequency and high slew rate for the upper frequency response without sacrificing hum and noise like HK did. If there's any negative comment regarding their product line was that the tone control/line preamp amp lacked the same type of clarity and transient response. The success of TX2500 and TX4500 catapulted Onkyo into the audio world and then the development of the TX1500 and TX8500 began to create a full line of receivers. A few years later, the Mark II series of the original line was introduced but it was a variation on a theme of the original product line. Another interesting product line that you might be able see on ebay is their original Integra line. If you ever have a chance, check out the P303 preamp and M505 power amp. They both have unique circuitry and cosmetics that might interest the collectors. The P303 is literally a straight line preamp with a MC stage with gain. The front panel is sparse but the sonic characteristic is phenom. The M505 (105 wpc) is a bit underpowered but the transient response is awesome. As years progressed, Onkyo because less interested in the sonics and more in profits and I left the company (I think in 1978) to pursue product development in separates with Nikko to revamp the Beta, Gamma, and Alpha separates. As of now, I still have a TS-500 Quad Receiver, T-4055 tuner, TX4500 MkII, and a broken TX4500. I'm looking for a new glass front panel for the TX4500 because the shipper that sent the TX4500 packed it so poorly that it damaged the glass. I still have sentimental attachments to alot of their product because it brings back great memories of the earlier stages of my career in the audio industry. Someday when I actually can find time, I'd like to restore the TX4500 and redesign the tone control circuitry to match the rest of the receiver.

Wtih warmest regards,

Tom Ishimoto
Northridge Electronics
 
Sam,
Nothing I've heard from the P-303 has caused me to doubt Mr Ishiwata's asessment at all.
I glad I took the plunge(even if it means I have another quality preamp to add to the ever growing list).
The vintage preamp which has ambitions to kick sand in the face of the EW700C,has it's work cut out for it.:yes:
 
Yep,
I realised my mistake before coming back to this thread.

My apologies Mr Ishimoto.

Just had my first decent listen in two days.
The Onkyo is a superb communicator of musical insight.Passages which previously had seemed to you to be lacking coherent musical structure,or hard to interpret musical structure take on an organisation which yields interplay/s previously unrevealed.(This is on an abum which I haven't heard via the EW 700C/Dynavector,but have owned for 30 years).
Played the Mobile Fidelity Reiner/CSO Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra(also unheard on EW700C).I used to use side 2 to test equipment on showroom floors.
WOW.
This is a superb preamp.Another which needn't apologise for being vintage.
Again similar thing.Bucket-loads of gorgeous detail,full bodied,big performances from the musicians.I was becoming aware of aspects of the composition which have nothing to do with sound quality(almost..)rather I felt myself being shown to a greater degree than ever before,just how the composer was utilising this vast body of differing sounding instruments to both pass around and share melodic passages.Then how the composer uses the unique sounds of those instruments to elicit emotions and responses from the listener by masterfully manipulating that melodic fabric.
Do you think I was impressed?
Just a wee bit...:D
 
The system is a high achiever.
It's a wierd feeling,like discovering that your Radio-Shack microscope has this secret panel which turns it into an electron microscope.
What the Onkyo P-303 and the EW 700C/Dyna have in common is an ability to elict a level of greater resolution.This improvement is not confined to one aspect of listening,but in both components is totally across the board.The clincher,the proof for me in both cases is the greater insight into the musical intent which(I suppose)is the most satisying element.
The Onkyo is having serious warming-up issues(no probs with the EW700C),but the resolution stages are amazing.Ther is obviously still more up the P-303's sleeve.
I will put my hand-up and co-endorse the P-303.I think it's a bloody ripper!:thmbsp:
 
Theophile:

I've followed your previous 700C postings and am really surprised there is anything out there that would come close to the 700C. While I do not doubt the 700C deserves praise and the P-303 is everything you say it is, I have to wonder if the "glow of discovery" has not worn off. I must admit I am the same but it would take a lot of listening to replace my favorite system. Have you done a true A/B? Even better, if you can figure out how to do a true blind test, I am curious what your comments would be.

BTW, thanks to you and Tom, the P-303 is now on my radar!

Sam.

theophile said:
Yep,
I realised my mistake before coming back to this thread.

My apologies Mr Ishimoto.

Just had my first decent listen in two days.
The Onkyo is a superb communicator of musical insight.Passages which previously had seemed to you to be lacking coherent musical structure,or hard to interpret musical structure take on an organisation which yields interplay/s previously unrevealed.(This is on an abum which I haven't heard via the EW 700C/Dynavector,but have owned for 30 years).
Played the Mobile Fidelity Reiner/CSO Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra(also unheard on EW700C).I used to use side 2 to test equipment on showroom floors.
WOW.
This is a superb preamp.Another which needn't apologise for being vintage.
Again similar thing.Bucket-loads of gorgeous detail,full bodied,big performances from the musicians.I was becoming aware of aspects of the composition which have nothing to do with sound quality(almost..)rather I felt myself being shown to a greater degree than ever before,just how the composer was utilising this vast body of differing sounding instruments to both pass around and share melodic passages.Then how the composer uses the unique sounds of those instruments to elicit emotions and responses from the listener by masterfully manipulating that melodic fabric.
Do you think I was impressed?
Just a wee bit...:D
 
Sam,
Do you mean the EW 700C when you say the glow has worn off?The answer is most vehemently,definitely not.
Combined with the Dyna P-75 I've never heard vinyl sound so good.The P-303 is still settling in.Who knows it may sound better in a month?
I miss the greater number of line inputs on the 700C.I miss the sound quality of the EW 700C/Dyna P-75,but the phono performance of the P-303 is sufficiently good that I'm hearing thoroughly familiar recordings,ones not yet heard via the EW 700C(personal reference recordings) as I've never heard them before.
Take of that what you will.I'm going to leave the Onkyo in for a month aand just give it a chance to settle,if that makes a difference in this instance.
The EW 700C will go out of my posession post-mortum.:smoke:
 
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