How To Explain New Audio ratings vs. Vintage?

jryan464

Active Member
I know I have read here how the new home theatre/audio specs of today really are misleading compared to the vintage spec ratings...however, whenever someone new comes over and sees my vintage stuff, they start spouting that "today you can get 1000 watt systems for $200"...blah blah blah...I try to explain to them that many components only rate each speaker at like 160 watts or something and you multiply each one plus add the sub and that's how you get that rating. Plus the THD is not anything like the vintage gear. In fact, when I look at the web pages for the new stuff, I can't even find the THD ratings! I would like a concise way to explain the difference to people so they will actually understand why their is a difference.

I have a Bose Lifestyle 3000 in my basement TV room. You know, the 5 cute cube speakers and the sub...sounds really great to watch movies on. It really does. It doesn't sound bad for CD's. However, I also have my Sansui 4000 with a pair of Sansui SP-X6000 speakers...when I put the same CD in each system, in the same room, it is amazing to see the reaction!! But sometimes I cannot do that or we aren't at home for this fun opportunity...
 
I never explain it, I just do what you did in your last paragraph. I turn it on and tell them to step back and then watch their jaws drop and the smiles on their face.:music:

Sau
 
Well I think that the ratings on new systems is rated at peak power.... vintage systems I believe are rated at RMS.... you need to multiply the peak power ratings by .707 to get it's rms value...

But of course the only true way to see the difference is an audio "audition"... I have a Pioneer VSX-498D receiver, it has a rating of 400 watts (100watts for Front -Left Right speakers, 100watts for the center, and 50watts per side on the rear speakers , it's the "new fan-dangle" 5.1 surround receiver blah blah...

I also have a Pioneer SX-3600 vintage receiver.. 35 wpc x 4 channels = 140 watts...

I can tell you without one bit of hesitation that the 498 receiver cannot come close to the sound that the 3600 puts out...

But now you have to remember that for the most part vintage gear was built to run 2 channels or 4 channels....and to be ran into fairly large speakers. There wasn't anything like Dolby Digital 5.1/6.1/7.1 surround sound with all the effects and bells and whistles which the newer receivers run today.

IMO it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges....one is not made to do the other's job properly...
 
A pioneer SX-3600 is a 2 channel receiver. rated 35 x 2 into 8 ohms. There are only 2 channels of amplification not 4. They typically measure 20 % or so better on the bench. Into 4 ohms they produce perhaps 55 wpc at best. Most of the difference in sound you are hearing is the speakers. Most decent HT receivers will meet their power spec driving 2 channels but output is reduced driving 5 channels. Typically many are 100 wpc x 2 or 50 wpc x 5. The 100 wpc HT receiver should be able to play 3 db or so louder than the Pioneer ( a barely noticeable difference) in stereo mode.The very best will produce rated power into 5 or more channels.
 
Ahhhh... 2 channels are amplified, cool, didn't know that... so when I run the receiver in A+B mode with 4 speakers then the Right and Left amplified channel must be split two ways, A channel and B channel? Correct?
 
Yes the left a and b speaker are using the left channel amplifier and the right a and b are sharing the right channel.
 
Bah. Ratings on equipment today are total BS. And they way specs are shown seems to vary from one manufacturer to another and even on different models from the same manufacturer.

There's no point in trying to explain this to someone who sees a big sticker that says 1000watts!!!!!!!! on the front of their Prosonic mini-system and believes it.
 
The FTC standard for power ouput was made for stereo units in the 70's. Most HT receivers (except for the real no name junk) meet those specs in stereo mode only. 5 channels driven it is anyones guess.
 
I don't trust ratings until I've put a clamp meter on the gear myself...I've installed enough "1000W" amps to realize that :)

The mobile electronics industry now has the CEA-2006 standard, but it's really only as useful as the companies who (voluntarily) go into it. And it's at 1kHz, which has me scratching my head, because that's near useless for a sub amp that might not be linear above 500Hz...*shrugs*
 
:bs:


Yeah, like the seven pound Panasonic HT receiver that says 1000 watts output on the big sticker on the front but on the back it says it only pulls in 180 watts from the wall. LOL... :thumbsdn:
 
The simplest explanation is that in the vintage system days, WPC ratings were continuous output with both channels driven, meaning quite simply that the receiver or amp would run like that all day. In fact most vintage ratings were conservative and I have seen tests run on 45WPC receivers that did not start clipping until 52WPC.

Today's rating system is literally the peak instantaneous power produced by any one channel just before the magic smoke comes out. Any connection with reality is purely accidental.
 
Yes the left a and b speaker are using the left channel amplifier and the right a and b are sharing the right channel.

Jebus... then the 35 wpc of my SX-3600 sounds bigger than I thought!! lol... I was running 4 speakers from the 3600 and if I do the math that would be 35 wpc / 2.... so each speaker was receiving 17.5 watts.... awesome sound for such little drive...
 
JimJ[VT];1263247 said:
I don't trust ratings until I've put a clamp meter on the gear myself...I've installed enough "1000W" amps to realize that :)

The mobile electronics industry now has the CEA-2006 standard, but it's really only as useful as the companies who (voluntarily) go into it. And it's at 1kHz, which has me scratching my head, because that's near useless for a sub amp that might not be linear above 500Hz...*shrugs*



Right I knew it was something else... they are rated at 1 khz where the vintage gear is rated usually from 20 hz - 20khz, so say 35 wpc 20-20khz....
 
They are attempting to come up with a regulation for multi-channel AV amps. It is caught up with arguing among the makers. This has been going on jeez since the late-90s at least.
When looking at AV receivers, size and weight are good--as always with an amp! Plus, read the small print on amp output.
 
Read the specs on a typical decent AV receiver from the owners manual. They usually rate the power in RMS watts 20-20 khz into an 8 ohm load with a specified level of distortion. They usually omit the wording all channels driven simultaniously. Most do not use peak power or anything of that nature. Often they also specify power at 1 KHZ. I have measured many on the bench. Most will meet their specs driving the 2 channels at a time. Most have a single pair of output transistors per channel that I think would limit running the unit at high power continuously. The tuners on Ht receivers run the gammut all the way from terrible to mediocre.
 
Jebus... then the 35 wpc of my SX-3600 sounds bigger than I thought!! lol... I was running 4 speakers from the 3600 and if I do the math that would be 35 wpc / 2.... so each speaker was receiving 17.5 watts.... awesome sound for such little drive...

We can assume you are using Sansui speakers?

Then 98db/1m/1w can produce 110DB/1meter with just with 16wpc. 110Db is quite a bit.

Find your sensitivity rating, and for every 3Db you add, double the wattage needed.

Like:
98db - 1watt
101 - 2 watts
104 - 4 watts
107 - 8 watts
110 - 16 watts
113 - 32 watts
116 - 64 watts
119 - 128 watts
So on....

Do this until you reach the speaker's max continuous rating and you have the speakers max SPL level. :)
 
Today's rating system is literally the peak instantaneous power produced by any one channel just before the magic smoke comes out. Any connection with reality is purely accidental.

Yep. I'll explain the power difference this way to folks... vintage watts is like an auto engine is XXX horsepower that you can sustain for a nice cruise down the highway... and today's wattage is saying an auto engine has YYY horsepower but one second after you achieve that horsepower the engine is going to be toast.
 
Those specs that refer to the momentary maximum power on one channel just before "burn out" is called "P.M.P.O." (Peak Momentary Power Output) Wattage. It was mostly used to sell boomboxes, allowing them to take a range of up to 15 or 17 watts or so for the biggest boxes and claim, "200 Watts!" or "800 Watts!" or some such ridiculous figure on the front decals. Some of them even proudly added the "P.M.P.O." designation in bold print, as if it were something to brag about!

This type of measurement is NOT usually used with A/V amps, although exactly how they do calculate their specs I don't remember (did read about it before, though). It is better, but still not the continuous RMS ratings measured in the old way. :no:
 
Well, this is sort of how it works:

In the old days, power was quoted as continious, both channels driven, under worst case mains power conditions. It is also often quoted for the full bandwidth, but in this case it is not tested for by running the amp at an arbitrary frequency within that bandwidth (say 20 - 20k) for 24 hours, instead it is done using a wideband noise source with a known long term RMS value. For normal testing, a single frequency (often 1k or 315Hz) is used on a nominal load, and with low mains power. The amps are expected to perform that way for 1 hour, in a standard temperature room, under the recomended placement conditions (this is what is written in the manual, things like leven surface with no top ventilation holes obstructed and X inches free space on all sides). Keep in mind that mains voltage used to be specced as 110V US, 22V EU, 240V UK - while now it is 115V or 230V, hence US and EU standard amps run at higher mains, and also produce higher than declared power.

Somewhere during the decline after the golden years, 'peak power' declarations became more and more popular. In one way, this makes sense as music has a waveform envelope that is very peaky, i.e. the ratio of peak vs RMS power is very high. Unfortunately, because manufacturing costs and especially transport costs were continually creeping higher, this rating soon started being used to cut costs. Large electrolytics became cheaper, smaller and especially lighter than large transformers. It should be noted that normal EI transformer lamination technology has not progressed so far since those days and although transformers can be somewhat smaller and lighter using optimized stack sizes, most 80s amps already have way too small transformers, and todays multichannel receivers are downright ridiculous. This, however, is not true for C, R and toroidal core transformers - these are indeed about half the size for the same power - but they were also much more expensive to make then. Somewhere during that time declarations also started omitting the 'both channels driven' part, which imemdiately saves you half the power supply size - it proved to be a big hit with the accountants, and as we know, most of the buying public could not care less. Further, the peak power rating includes a very short time during which it is observable. As far as i remember it is about 10ms, and also, with a frequency burst at 1kHz. The reason for this is that 10ms is enough to fit only one single cycle at 100Hz, already short of the promised 20Hz lower cut-off frequency.

With the advent of multichannel, things started being even more absurd. At best, consumer grade multichannel amps are tested using two channel methodology, which means they at best satisfy the declaration with two out of more channels driven. Today this is VERY easy to see. Receivers declared at 5x100W have transformers smaller than stereo amps with the same WPC declaration. In many cases, because now there is no need to add the 'both channels driven' because it does not make sense, the declaration is for 5x100W, say, but for one channel at a time. As one would expect, if the rating is measured using tone bursts, the situation is even worse.

Finally, computer audio. Here we have the famous PMPO. Simply put, this has ABSOLUTELY NO CONENCTION WITH ANY REAL POWER. In other words, you can pretty much declare anything you want for PMPO power since no-one has ever defined what it actually means. All attempts to make some sense of it are actually completely futile and a fools errand. Why? Simply put, if a speaker is connected directly to a power supply (omitting all possible losses from an amp), with a whimpy 12V 1A you get 3A of current through a 4 ohm speaker, for the first ms or so - and that is a whole 36W. You get no more, no matter for how short the pulse is. When it says 100W or 1000@ or anything really over this 36W, it is downright lying, and if it says anything between 12 and 36W it is distorting the truth seriously.
 
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