Recapping AR-4X

mxlews

Active Member
How do I go about recapping my AR-4X's? They have these odd (wax?) blocks that seem to hold most of the crossover parts. The crossover parts are not visible by looking at the blocks, except for the inductors on top of them. I thought this was kind of odd...definitely nothing I've seen before. :scratch2:

Thanks,
Max
 
The block has a cap in it, that's it. 20uf for the 4x IIRC - check classicspeakerpages.net for a schematic.

The pot is actually a rheostat that acts as a fixed resistor, plus the inductor and the single cap. That's the whole crossover. :yes:
 
Remove and replace the old "block" capacitor with a new equivilant value cap of your favorite type, from your favorite supplier! Please consider using one of our AK sponsors as your parts source!

The pot is a source of trouble on these, you may want to replace it, or bypass it altogether. Bypassing the pot means you will not be able to adjust the tweeter level, but that's not a big deal for most folks, you can always adjust the level from your preamp.

It's fairly easy to clean up the old pots, provided there is enough of it left to clean up. This works just fine, but it will need to be redone as the corrosion will return again and again. If you don't mind pulling them apart when the control starts to get intermitent or scratchy, there is nothing wrong with cleaning and re-using the original.

Hope this helps!
 
...or bypass it altogether.
The simple fix (and better IMO) is to bypass the wiper if the pot won't clean up. What this does is set the control at its maximum, and leaves the resistor in place in the crossover.

The "Pot" is 16 ohm wire-wound ceramic resistor with an adjustable output in the center. Take the lead from the center and move it to the high output post on the control. You've by-passed the problem area and left your crossover intact.

Just my .02
 
The simple fix (and better IMO) is to bypass the wiper if the pot won't clean up. What this does is set the control at its maximum, and leaves the resistor in place in the crossover.

The "Pot" is 16 ohm wire-wound ceramic resistor with an adjustable output in the center. Take the lead from the center and move it to the high output post on the control. You've by-passed the problem area and left your crossover intact.

Just my .02

Kermit :)D) said it much better than I did! :yes: That is what I should have said when I said to bypass the pot, It was not even 7 AM yet when I posted it, and I was still a little foggy in the head...:boring:
 
Thanks, birddog! :D

Not trying to be contradictory - some remove the control entirely, and like it that way. By-passing the wiper is a less drastic "fix" to my old ears. :music: Just wanted to make sure mxlews had options to consider when deciding what to do with these. :thmbsp:
 
Schematics here, Mxlews:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1299715#post1299715

The high-pass frequency shifts depending upon the wiper location.

Removing it entirely lowers that, I'd say significantly.

I don't think we want lower frequency with no attenuation, nope.

Frankly, I don't understand what the big deal is with respect to replacing these pots.

Stick an 8-Ohm L-pad with a parallel resistor in there and be done with it.

What's the impedance of the tweeter?

Better yet, bring them up here and we'll measure.

[I sent my AR4x tweeters to Nickroboton....]
 
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Frankly, I don't understand what the big deal is with respect to replacing these pots.

Stick an 8-Ohm L-pad with a parallel resistor in there and be done with it.

What's the impedance of the tweeter?

Better yet, bring them up here and we'll measure.

[I sent my AR4x tweeters to Nickroboton....]
That's what I was thinking of doing to mine. What did Nick do with your tweeters?
 
I've already bypassed the pots. Don't know if I'll be able to make it up there anytime soon, Zilch, but I'll let you know. Thanks for the help guys.
 
What did Nick do with your tweeters?
Best I know, he installed them in his AR4xs. :)
Don't know if I'll be able to make it up there anytime soon, Zilch, but I'll let you know.
Maybe Duff'll bring his down next time he comes this way, and we'll sort it out. :yes:

Thinking it through, the original pot MIGHT maintain a more constant speaker voice with varying tweeter levels than just a straight L-Pad, depending upon what the actual impedance values are. Thus, the hybrid (L-Pad plus parallel resistor) solution developed by RoyC to mimick the pot would appear to be a preferred replacement path, subject to confirmation via actual performance measurements:

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I was hesitant to put the wire colors on there, as I don't have any AR4x here to verify. I'll fix it later, if necessary....
 

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Thinking it through, the original pot MIGHT maintain a more constant speaker voice with varying tweeter levels than just a straight L-Pad, depending upon what the actual impedance values are. Thus, the hybrid (L-Pad plus parallel resistor) solution developed by RoyC to mimick the pot would appear to be a preferred replacement path, subject to confirmation via actual performance measurements:
The original AR "pot" is actually a rheostat, with a constant 16 ohm impedance, with the wiper varying from 0->16 ohms.

An 8 ohm L-pad varies output from 8->40 ohms (at least that's the behavior of the basic PE version) and the impedance across 1 and 3 varies as well with the wiper position. (I don't recall the range.)

Very different animals.
 
The original AR "pot" is actually a rheostat, with a constant 16 ohm impedance, with the wiper varying from 0->16 ohms.
Well, no, unless I'm reading the schematics wrong, it's a wirewound potentiometer used as a variable resistance divider. A rheostat is not a divider. A potentiometer can be wired as a rheostat, but I don't believe that's the case in AR4x. See the pics below: rheostat, left, potentiometer, right.

[Of note: Wikipedia doesn't QUITE agree with me on this distinction, taking a somewhat broader view that rheostats are merely high-power potentiometers, but also duly noting that rheostats "are usually used as variable resistors rather than variable potential dividers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheostat Two terminals, it's a rheostat, and three it's a pot, according to Zilch. ;) ]

Neither is it constant impedance. We look at the schematic and see the 16 Ohms connected from the capacitor to common, and say that it's constant, but once you connect a tweeter to the wiper, the impedance seen by the capacitor, even assuming that of the tweeter itself is constant, varies according to the wiper position.

Consider the extremes: at maximum attenuation, with the wiper at zero resistance, the capacitor "sees" 16 Ohms to common. However, at minimum attenuation, the tweeter is in parallel with the 16 Ohms, and thus the capacitor sees a lower impedance. If it's an 8-Ohm (nominal) tweeter, that's 16||8 = 5.33 ohms, and the filter highpass frequency increases proportionately.

Now, remove the 16 Ohms in parallel with the tweeter, the impedance goes to 8 Ohms, and the filter frequency drops. Without doing the calcs, just looking at the filter charts in the PE catalog, taking the AR pot out of the circuit drops the highpass frequency from ~1.5 kHz to 1 kHz, a bad idea, I'd say.

There's more going on here than simple attenuation, and I suspect some of the altered voicing reported by those who have tried the "remove from circuit" approach may be due to these factors. If you're going to remove the pot, put a fixed 16 Ohms in its place to restore the original impedance and highpass filter operating point at minimum attenuation.

My conclusion that the pot (or perhaps RoyC's suggested approximation thereof) is a better solution than a straight L-Pad is based upon the observation that, given a fixed LOWpass frequency for the woofer, to maintain a constant voicing of the system, it would be appropriate for the highpass frequency to rise with increasing drive. Without being aware of it, we actually vary the acoustic crossover point whenever we change the balance of the drivers using common crossover topologies. See Fig. 7 here:

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp2.htm

I appreciate that y'all have been through this AR4x pot thing ad infinitum previously; I'm merely revisiting that work and putting forth a rationale favoring one particular approach over the others commonly advocated here.... :yes:

Edit: Wikipedia corrected its information ~12/07 in conformity with my position as stated above. In discussions there, the prior version was dubbed "Ignorant." It now references IEEE standard definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
 

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AR4x REdux

Duffinator donated an early (S/N 431xx, 1966) pair of AR4x to "Research" on my pot replacement scheme, and I find that they are an undocumented (so far as I have been able to discover) configuration with a two-pole filter on the woofer. The "wax block" capacitor has two sections, and they are both operative, one as the standard high-frequency highpass, but ~25 uF instead of the more standard 20 uF, and the second in the lowpass, shunting the woofer with ~30 uF, it appears. The lowpass inductor is also larger than others, more like 2 mH. Values to be verified.

Is anyone familiar with this design, easily recognized by the three leads (Grn, Blu, Blk) coming out of the "fat block" capacitor? I'm not finding it over at Classic Speaker, either, though there are a couple of cases there where the reversed polarity of the tweeter connection has apparently been misdiagnosed as a "user mod." It's not, being rather the correct phase connection for the different filter. I'd certainly like to find out what the correct original values of the capacitors are.

In any case, the pots are well corroded on these (yes, rockwool,) and the tweeters don't function, but are O.K., so, in the meantime, I'm moving forward with evaluating my attenuation mod, as the HF section topology is the same as later versions. The initial teasing measurements below reveal two AR4x characteristics:

1) These need subs. The original spec was for bass to 50 Hz. Yes, these do it, but at -10 dB, the lower limit of useable bass. See the nearfield (~3") bass measurements, red and green.

2) These cone tweeters, or at least the one under test here thus far, have excellent HF extension, as also did the pair I sent to Nickroboton earlier this year:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6153

Yes, they're beamy, and I'll attempt to document that, as well. These sound like AR4xs, just as I remember them.... :thmbsp:
 

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ZilchMod AR4x

S1 is a three-way (on-on-on) miniature toggle switch with sealed terminals and silver-plated contacts, C&K 7211SYZSQE or Alco MTA206PA04, available from Newark, DigiKey, others. Use a sealed rotary selector switch for more settings and/or finer resolution, if desired. The toggle switches and resistors cost about the same as quality L-Pads, substantially less than replacement wirewound pots.

As shown in the schematic, fixed resistors comprise a stack providing three levels of attenuation, the values specified giving ~4 dB per step, i.e., 0, -4 dB, and -8 dB. Resistor values must total ~15 - 16 Ohms to match the original circuit impedance and performance. The actual operation of several alternative resistance selections is illustrated in the curves below. See the legends in each for values of R1, R2, and R3, respectively.

Black curve in first pic is what happens when the pot is removed entirely, a bad idea.

Yeah, I spilled my coffee.... :p:

Edit: See the Dynaco A-25 circuit as precedent, last pic, and Steve O's discussion of this HF shelving network here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1102415#post1102415
 

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AR4x data:

1) Impedance curves on this pair of AR4x driver sets, plus a spare pair of woofers from my own pair, of apparent different vintage. DCR's as follows:

Woofer DCR #1 to #4, respectively: 5.1, 5.2, 4.4, 4.4

Impedance #1 & 2 = 7.45 @ 1200 Hz, 7.85 @ 1400 Hz (cursors)
#3 & 4 = 8.25 @ 1200 Hz, 9.25 @ 1400 Hz

Tweeter DCR #1 & #2: 4.2, 4.3

Impedance #1 & #2: 4.75, 4.50, respectively, at both crossover frequencies.

Woofers, then, are nominal 8 Ohms in the crossover region (but rising fast,) and the tweeters are more like 4 Ohms.

2) As I suggested above, the AR4x potentiometer attenuation scheme shifts the tweeter highpass frequency downward with greater attenuation, here shown by normalizing the SPL at all three attenuation settings. The shift is regular and significant: 50 Hz/4 dB of attenuation.

A puzzle: 4.5 Ohms impedance || 15 Ohms potentiometer = 3.5 Ohms seen by the 20 uF highpass filter, translating to an electrical highpass frequency somewhat above 2 kHz. What's going on here? AR4x crossover is supposedly at 1.4 kHz (early) or 1.2 kHz. :dunno:

A hint for crossover tweakers is in these normalized attenuation curves.

[Gettin' fun now, AR4x.... :thmbsp: ]
 

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1) A puzzle: 4.5 Ohms impedance || 15 Ohms potentiometer = 3.5 Ohms seen by the 20 uF highpass filter, translating to an electrical highpass frequency somewhat above 2 kHz. What's going on here? AR4x crossover is supposedly at 1.4 kHz (early) or 1.2 kHz. :dunno:

A hint for crossover tweakers is in these normalized attenuation curves.

Looks to me like they set the XO frequency about where that dip is just >2kHz and let the XO rolloff and the tweeter response cancel each other to keep the overall curve flat down to about 1.2kHz or so resulting in a 1.2Hz acoustic crossover point where the electrical rolloff is just a piece of the equation.

Is that the question you were asking? I do enjoy the Zilchquiz of the day.

Ray
 
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