Dahlquist vs. Vandersteens - baffled!

Dahlquist vs. Vandersteens - I'm baffled!

or, not baffled?

Who's the King of Imaging?
Full range, please?

Today's score: Dahlquist DQ-12's

Wonderful sonically, like nothing I've heard... (initial test in progress... details coming...)

Cosmetically -- expected wear... 5/10. Touchy pull-around parts of the shear, light grill fabric --less acoustically interfering-- :thmbsp:

Very odd metal mesh-like back grill protecting the top mid/tweeter. Lends a decidedly unpolished, no-nonsense look. The support bracket is remniscent of a mini Jubilie... Contrast that with the Heavy lower deck... at least .75" thick everywhere (42 pounds overall.)

On the support for the front grill frame and the back metal mesh there's more angularity than a Stealth Bomber... hmmm it's black... I'm calling this my Stealth Dahlquist.

Dusty...which means these are not new things with recycled model numbers... :thmbsp:

Spikes. Hmm. carefull!

First time I've ever heard baffle-lessness, but after reading everything on the Vandersteens, I knew I must have an example...

These are 3-way, upright, not the 5-way DQ-10s that are more talked about...

To compare,

Dahlquist DQ-12 msrp $1500 19?? 3-way, phase-aligned, complex "time-delay-corrected" crossover design.

"The 1" Tweeter and 5" Midrange are Vifas.
8" Woofer is a Gefco 4 ohm (?)
in a sealed 0.64 cubic foot enclosure.
Crossovers are at 400 Hz and 3500 Hz.
38-22,000 Hz with a +/-2.5 dB from 52-20,000 Hz. "

Phased Array
Impedance: 8 ohms
42" High x 16" W x 9" Deep
43 Lbs. Net

The back says 40-125 watts; there are 2 fuses, 3 amp and either a .8 or an 8 amp! :sigh:

Only 1 of the fuses was good, one fried and 2 missing! I replaced them all... but that upper .8 or 8 has me concerned...

Maybe somebody blew the fuses and stored them for 20 years!

These appear efficient; didn't expect that (even next to my Klipsch R-F7s which are 102 dB/W) but nowhere could I find any dB/W specs... only that DQ-10s were madly hungry...

Considering how few net references on the DQ-12 I found, maybe they were only made for a brief interval. Maybe just before the company went south in 1993?


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Vandersteens

Vandersteen 2ce Signatures. Have a set in the bedroom. Love them, the imaging is astounding when the placement is right.

Never heard the Dahlquists. Even though I once had the opportunity to
pick up a set of DQ10s, but didn't have the cash. Would have bought them on reputation alone.

Brother Dave

If not for Richard Vandersteen's explanations of the properties of minimum baffle and time/phase coherence, I would not have had the Black Stealth Dahlquists on my radar.

I snapped them up an hour after the listing--any hesitation and they would have disappeared... Snooze = Lose :sigh:

The DQ-12's driver element arrangement /configuration is closer to your Signature 2e than the DQ-10s, (which were not in a vertical array--some people mod them to be symmetrical [later ones came symmetrical]).

The mid and tweeter are slightly up-angled, your 2e has a mid driver much more extremely tilted.

Also, since the DQ-12's 3-way Xover is less taxing than the DQ-10's 5-way, the overall efficiency and therefore bass output may be more balanced than the 10s. BUt the DQ-10 was designed to be used with the subwoofer (?).
[nope, the sub came later...]

Your Vandersteens go a different route for more bass--the second extra wood-mass-dampened low frequency driver (downward firing?).

But I'll be bi-amping so relative bass level will be fine-tuned. :thmbsp:

[bi-amping hasn't worked so well. Guess I need matching bi's. ]

Gotta love the floor spikes, add the resonant properties of the floor...

Enjoy your Vandersteens!

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Rear-firing on the Vandys....

Did the auto detailing... unscrew grill cover... this cover frame is heavy enough to pick the 43 lbs up with... :yes:

Yowza the woofer foam surrounds are like MINT! Grey color matched, not a recent refurb---too much dust everywhere!? [update- yes they were old. One side did separate, so initial impressions are suspect]

Cranked down the loose bracket bolts, loose binding post. (watch fiberglass)

All connections are soldered, no rattly pinch-on or old auto grade snap-in style here!

1" Tweet is Denmark VAFA D26TG-05, 6 ohm 911
-------the D27TG-05, which appears to be the same, $22 from PartsExpress

---This excellent tweeter features a coated silk dome, linear response faceplate, and ferro fluid cooling. Damped cavity in pole piece. High power handling. User replaceable voice coil.
* Power handling: 100 watts RMS/140 watts max *

Nominal impedance: 6 ohms * DC resistance: 4.6 ohms *
Frequency range: 2,500-30,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 8.5 oz. * Fs: 1000 Hz * SPL: 91 dB 1W/1m * Net weight: 1-1/4 lbs. * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 4-1/16", Cutout Diameter: 2-7/8", Mounting Depth: 1-1/4", Magnet Diameter: 2-7/8", Magnet Height: 3/4".

Click to expand...

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5" mid says SR 110/4 on its butyl surround... didn't take it out of the deep back cylinder (ported?) thingy. Partial hyperbolic (like Tannoy), maybe another reason the sweet spot's all over the room?

Was gonna peek at the woofer to see if it's original but it was glued and screwed in there pretty good. :worried: ---[now convinced it is]

Reddish adhesive under the dust cover, fiber cone, trying to I.D. it by the pics on this thread Dahlquist DQ-12 woofer replacement

jbush thanks for posting those!


----- eerie hearing ----

Okay, trying to adapt my ear/brain to discount new, novel sound and compare more objectively between my zoo of speakers ....

So is this smoothness, eerie life-like imaging because of first-order curves? Or the airy dispersion pattern? Or placebo effect? :scratch2:

I can't tell the difference with or without the metal mesh, so it's probably there partially holding up the grill and protecting the drivers, (design for worst case treatment!) not intentional diffusion out the back to reduce dipolar echo. Might leave it off, drape it around like Vandersteen does. Go whole hog, leave the grill off...

The grill fabric the lightest *flimsy!* most acoustically transparent material this side of aerogel. [update - I can see why this changed--the 10's and 20's have metal mesh to get that 'curved' Quad look--but were they voiced bare?]

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Great find man, and I'm glad you're excited about them! Funny thing these DQ speakers, they seem to invoke excitement like few other manufacturer's do for their listeners. :thmbsp: One day I'll get to sample the phased array models, one day. Until then, I'll gladly settle for my DQ box design. :yes:

Mike

Keep an eye...

... on your woofer surrounds. Mine were shot when I got them, and if yours are close to the same age, the foam may go at any time, especially with high SPL's. However, they were an easy refoam.

Also, if you are interested, I think I got 2 original owner's manuals with these speakers, so PM me if you'd like my spare copy....:thmbsp:

analog addict said:

... on your woofer surrounds. Mine were shot when I got them, and if yours are close to the same age, the foam may go at any time, especially with high SPL's. However, they were an easy refoam.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the warning, the surrounds had no actual visible flaws but might be brittle... :sigh:

The original owner blew the fuses. That might actually be a good thing, they may have seen very little use... maybe 'slightly abused'...

There are always tradeoffs.

For high volume bass, I'll test them with the Subs, sure, but of course the 92-pound Klipsch RF-7s will still be in the rotation (250W continuous, 1000W max, 102 dB/W, SPLs over 125 at 64W easily through 3 x 50-ounce magnet drivers).

But I'm more interested in what they'll do with the 2006 Japanese remastered Santana's Caravanserai at moderate levels...

analog addict said:

Also, if you are interested, I think I got 2 original owner's manuals with these speakers, so PM me if you'd like my spare copy....:thmbsp:

Click to expand...

Now that's a big-time yes!!!

Any postage I'll reimbuse-- or is a letter-sized Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope good? (pm sent)

...

Who's the King of Imaging?
Full range, please?

Click to expand...

Donno if you want other makes here, but almost any "stat" or ribbon/planar design that I've heard, has a physicality to the music being played that has to be heard to be believed.
With my Duettas, the song "My Immortal" (Evanescence) Amy Lee is firmly placed between the speakers and about 4 feet in front of the plane of them.
Some albums (Genesis's Selling England by the Pound) will have studio noises comming from beyond the side walls of my room. Until I was used to it I would go look to see if someone was in the garage (one wall is the back of it).
Neat stuff. :yes:

Susurus, by the way...

Did your's come with the single amp brass bars across the biamping set up?

Each speaker has a recessed panel with 2 nice fuse screw-ins and 4 speaker connectors. A pair for bass, the other for treble/mid.

analog addict said:

Did your's come with the single amp brass bars across the biamping set up?

Click to expand...

Yes!

Amazingly the seller did hand me the brass bars...they were not lost trapsing around somewhere in the universe where mismatched socks go!

The semicircular cutouts on these look unprofessional, not evenly cut. (Not like the Klipsch gold plated bars...)

The same brass in the brace/stands for the mid/tweeter pedestal are perfectly positioned...


hey should I substitute copper for the brass here? Or was the higher resistance taken into account in the overall design? :lol:

This, and the screws on the back of the metal mesh sez performance, not fit and finish. And the riflings inside the rear-port thingy on the mids.

Sonically I'm still in awe, a little Mahler at the moment...
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wineslob said:

Donno if you want other makes here, but almost any "stat" or ribbon/planar design that I've heard, has a physicality to the music being played that has to be heard to be believed.

Click to expand...

Indeed, the dipole/open baffle/reduced baffle/rounded baffle etc... design choices!

I wanna know, and if my preconceptions are shattered to heck, even better.

With my Duettas, the song "My Immortal" (Evanescence) Amy Lee is firmly placed between the speakers and about 4 feet in front of the plane of them.
Some albums (Genesis's Selling England by the Pound) will have studio noises comming from beyond the side walls of my room. Until I was used to it I would go look to see if someone was in the garage (one wall is the back of it).
Neat stuff. :yes:

Click to expand...

Real life fooling is so rare! Would love to hear those Duettas! (Will search for pics at least)

If/when I migrate to SACD (or whatever higher-resolution source) that Genesis will be one of the first. Lamb lies Down on Broadway too.


So far, I've never heard great full-range from any Stats or Planars setup.

Until I get a SPL meter and eq/spectral analyzer my ability to position the powered subs for smooth crossing over isn't great.... but that's my shortcoming, not the speaker designers'.

If/when I migrate to SACD (or whatever higher-resolution source) that Genesis will be one of the first. Lamb lies Down on Broadway too.

Click to expand...

Lamb is one of my fav's. The cut "More Fool Me" (Selling England) is where I hear things "off stage". See if you can tell where the "guys" in the band are standing on this cut. They should sound like they are around a mic (back up vocals) being distinctly seperated from each other, and Phil.
Another good album is Muddy Waters, Folk Singer. He should be sitting dead center, but his amp should be to the right and obviously on the floor.
One thing about diaphram style speakers, they dont image like cone/dome speakers. To me they are more realistic in scale. On the cuts I mention you can really sense the phyiscal size of the singer, a guitar, etc. Many, but not all, cone/dome speakers with pin-point imaging, dont (to my ears) image correctly. They may firmly place a singer dead center, but IMO sound like you are listening to a mouth, not a person standing there.
Height is an issue also. The first time I listened to B&W 801's they were awesome, except Peter Gabriel was 2 ft tall. (Lamb) BIG issue with me. Then I listened to M/L Sequel II's in the next room. Much better! All the detail and possibly more than the B&W's and Peter was now full height as he should be.

Susurus, PM me your email and I will scan and send the O.M. to you tomorrow (If I remember). If your foam surrounds do crumble on you, check the spiders also. Mine were as crumbly as the surrounds. I sent my drivers to Bill at Millersound to get rebuilt. If you have any problems with those 8-inchers, I would highly recommend Bill. PM me for details - don't want to sound like a fanboy.

I don't know if these are more sensitive than the DQ-10s as I have never senn or heard DQ-10s in 'real-life':tears: The DQ-12 certainly like power. I was pushing them with a PCR-800 until I got the urge to bi-amp them. Now I am using a Panny xr-55 (blasphemy, I know). The Panny heats up more than it ever has with any other speaker combination I have thrown at it.:sigh:

I was amazed at the amount of bass the 12s can put out!

Here is my recently built 1.5ft^3 sealed TC-12 between the naked-yet-dusty DQ-12s. Note the RA-7501 on the floor in the background. FWIW, my 8" drivers were not glued in - the speaker-sealing-tar/crap made me think they were though.

Here is my recently built 1.5ft^3 sealed TC-12 between the naked-yet-dusty DQ-12s. Note the RA-7501 on the floor in the background. FWIW, my 8" drivers were not glued in - the speaker-sealing-tar/crap made me think they were though.

Click to expand...

At the moment I've got the 12's and 20i's covers off, so the LR looks like your photo there~ and seeing double!

My estimate of 1.4ft^3 is the internal dimension of the 20i's woofer cabinet, (but I didn't subtract the crossover or 'shelf' in there.)

Your TC-12 is therefore the same resonant chamber size as the 20i?

DQ-10 up close - 1st impressions

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Last week for the first time I saw a DQ-10 up close.

The cabs were semi trapezoidal, and (early ones?) not mirrored--the woofs both leaned to the left. I'd have to remount the upper devices on the bottom and flip the whole thing over!
:yuck:

This example didn't image as well as my 12's, but pushed lower bass extension fer sure.

This example could be helped by a re-capping, or coiling? Or maybe just the metal mesh grill has got to go.

Then again the seller hooked up an old 100W Carver, which I suspect does not do them justice. Said the Carver was supposed to be tube-like. Well my Concept has a distinctly non-tubelike >450 damping factor, and non-tubelike THD so how do I compare them really.

I passed on them, maybe I'll find a pair with the higher stands. I'm not finished, never will be I suspect... :scratch2:

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Susurus said:

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Last week for the first time I saw a DQ-10 up close.

The cabs were semi trapezoidal, and (early ones?) not mirrored--the woofs both leaned to the left. I'd have to remount the upper devices on the bottom and flip the whole thing over!
:yuck:

This example didn't image as well as my 12's, but pushed lower bass extension fer sure.

This example could be helped by a re-capping, or coiling? Or maybe just the metal mesh grill has got to go.

Then again the seller hooked up an old 100W Carver, which I suspect does not do them justice. Said the Carver was supposed to be tube-like. Well my Concept has a distinctly non-tubelike >450 damping factor, and non-tubelike THD so how do I compare them really.

I passed on them, maybe I'll find a pair with the higher stands. I'm not finished, never will be I suspect... :scratch2:

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Click to expand...

Interesting.

Many folk re-arrange the top for mirror-imaging- I honestly don't know if the bottoms were modified later to shift the woofer over, but many just re-mount the top pieces and leave the woofer as-is, with great results.

I wouldn't worry so much with the way the bottom woofers are- of course, it would have been nice if they centered them, but it's most improving to just swap the top driver arrangement. Kinda goes against belief, but it is what it is.

Interesting the bass was better on the 10s. They aren't known for their bass, really. Not terrible, not even bad,really, but not truly full-range.

Re-capping is a popular part of the resto, and very helpful in sound. I've not heard of the metal mesh grill being removed with good effect. ???.

The 100W Carver to many folks indeed will sound tube-like, and seems a popular choice for the DQ-10s, but I'd venture to say at a more wpc version. Mine sounded good on 65wpc, 100wpc, even 120wpc, but a fast Denon amp at 170wpc bench-tested, with lotsa headroom is what really made them improve. Many folk swear by a fast amp with 250wpc, and lotsa headroom. be tube-like. Well my Concept has a distinctly non-tubelike >450 damping factor, and non-tubelike THD so how do I compare them really.

What were they being offered up at?

Jim Carey as The Riddler: "Too many questions!"

thedelihaus said:

Interesting.

Many folk re-arrange the top for mirror-imaging- I honestly don't know if the bottoms were modified later to shift the woofer over, but many just re-mount the top pieces and leave the woofer as-is, with great results.

Click to expand...

So far I've never seen a pic of one with mirrored bottoms, but there are a lot of modified 10's -- I mean people put ribbons on and unplug the supertweeter--I can't imagine somebody hasn't at least tried to flip the bottom section around... :saywhat:

Of course I know the lower frequencies are less directionally perceivable... but that's a lower order 400 Hz crossover, not a sub... and my main listening room is not cavernous. :bat:

I wouldn't worry so much with the way the bottom woofers are- of course, it would have been nice if they centered them, but it's most improving to just swap the top driver arrangement. Kinda goes against belief, but it is what it is.

Click to expand...

Yeah I'm fussy,

The 20i's are upright which does 2 things (at least): aligns them in a vertical array and reduces the need for speaker stands.

The woofers' centers sit 17.25" from the floor (w/o spikes).

Would be interesting to align all 5 DQ-10 drivers upright -- yeah I know it's Dr Seusslike to think of that... :yes:

Interesting the bass was better on the 10s. They aren't known for their bass, really. Not terrible, not even bad,really, but not truly full-range.

Click to expand...

My observed Bass ordering (fwiw, not A/B): 20i's best, then 10's, then 12's.

Raising the 10's off the floor would help...plus spikes. (Floor-loading or wall-loading just doesn't happen in my main sunken living room's soft carpeted acoustics.)

My only recent in-house Bass direct comparisons are with the HT:

1) a one-note-ish powered Klipsch RP-3 pair, and

2) the unpowered but 102 efficient modern dual-ported RF-7's... 92 lb two-way 3-element monoliths... like an A/D/S on steroids(?!).

I now prefer acoustic suspension bass for my main listening arena (circus! zoo!).

Re-capping is a popular part of the resto, and very helpful in sound.

Click to expand...

I read recently that caps in receivers measurably degrade over time, and a ~1976 vs. a 1992 is a bigger deal so it's not just recapping with modern spendy components just for fun.

I've not heard of the metal mesh grill being removed with good effect. ???.

Click to expand...

Talking front grills here--(the back seems to have no effect except making it harder to dust).

The 12's have a very flimsy, shear, supposedly acoustically transparent fabric. But I hear a less distinct sound with them on.

...And I've had the Maggies up for a month now, so clear and distinct mids was on my palate. :yes: Veiled you say? Maybe the LF dynamics at high volumes... well as you know they're firing through a large perforated board...and there's no foam surround on stretched mylar, so Don't Be Fooled Again goes through the Klipsch's :guitar: ... but ahhhhYessss Maggies breathe golden life into so many tunes.

In part my excursion was an attempt to have it all...

Wagnerian 'thundersheet' symphonic dynamics,
freq response smooth & extended,
musically diversified range handling,
SPL without fatigue,
crystal clarity, and instantaneous triangle transients.

Count Basie and Yes, Johnny Asia, and Peter Gabriel's US.

It mutated into a quest for imaging/realism/soundstage, once I knew that was possible and not just hypespeak!

And my Dahlquists deliver those goodies ...

...with the right amping and placement... did I say I was fussy?

--- [/digression ]

The 10's and 20's have both a fabric plus a heavy metal mesh covering the curved (Quad lookalike) front.

Some mods say to add a triangular thingy to prevent that from resonating. If they resonate that bad, sorry, I will yank out the metal.

Was the metal mesh only there to make it harder to see through? Back when the unenclosed mid/tweeter mount must have seemed beyond strange...!

Okay I just but the grills back on, but I'll do lots of A/B's.

Optical vs. acoustic transparency... I don't mind that I can kinda see through me Maggies.


Jim Carey as The Riddler: "Too many questions!"

Were they voiced with grills on or off?

If I upgraded the caps would I want the grill covers back?

Does the extra mass of the grill frame help the dynamics?

Is that what the frame/stand mods on Maggies does? Is it a bigger deal on the 43 lb 12's than the more massive 10's & 20's?

Does the grill's frame shape or refocus the sound from dipolar-ish to semicardiod? Should Vandersteen rethink the broom handles?

Mine might look funny with the frame on but no grill. I often listen in the dark...

If I don't like that a lighter fabric pulled side-to-side would retain the up/down curve facade without the metal mesh to mush the sound.

The 100W Carver to many folks indeed will sound tube-like, and seems a popular choice for the DQ-10s, but I'd venture to say at a more wpc version. Mine sounded good on 65wpc, 100wpc, even 120wpc, but a fast Denon amp at 170wpc bench-tested, with lotsa headroom is what really made them improve. Many folk swear by a fast amp with 250wpc, and lotsa headroom. be tube-like.

Click to expand...

I also seem to recall "100 w to drive them, 200 to blow them" from an AA? post... upgrading to a Scanspeak tweet surely helps belay that anecdotal warning...

The 10's inductor coils looked beefier than my 20i's, which might make sense for ~7 nodes.

Wonder if my 12's ever had an upgrade; they have the largest (red) coils--despite smaller drivers/wattage ratings. Or maybe that's Carl M's increasing influence by 1992 vs. 1989 for the 20i's. jbush, what do yours look like?

What were they being offered up at?

Click to expand...

3-400 range, local, old small feet & some wear on the cabs. Couldn't see the surrounds through the mesh, even with a high-power beam.

Very nice guy, although under a somewhat dubious belief that his Mac amp used to be owned by Jerry Garcia (or is that Doobie-ous?). Sounded loud w/ those B&W 802's, whatever its history. And his main 'heaven' listening room was truly phenomenal. Someday...

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"Something in the way she moved..."

Dahlquists are taking over my house!

Since I've not had any encounters yet with Vandersteens I'm starting a new thread which continues the Dahlquist direction I'm going.

Click here

or any other Time/Phase aligned or coherent designs you might know about?

Alon/Nola, Green Mountain,
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