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Fortura 8 Heil AMT speakers?

gonzothegreat

Super Member
Good news: Found a pair of speakers with Heil AMTs YAY! 8" woofers in a 4' tall ported cabinet.

Bad news: They look like <word that looks like Heil>. No grilles. The woofers are practically write-offs. Punctured cone on one and both surrounds are gone. Dunno if the tweeters even work.

I read some posts about the AMT drivers and many think the woofers were the weak spot of the design.

The tweeters don't look like the ones on AMT1s except for the V shape. Two black magnets the size of a folded dollar bill flanking the membrane. I think the magnets are covered with some sort of sound absorbing rubber. I'll post pics when I get them inside.
 
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The tweeters can be easily fixed if they are damaged as diaphragms are only $30 ea and just slide in. If you have the type that are the large dipoles that sit on top of the cabinet you have just got some of the best tweeters in the world. As far as the rest of the speaker goes I wouldn't worry too much about it as they never were that great. The AMTs are the find and are great for building some DIY that will blow away just about anything out there.
 
Great score Gonzo. Oh and were all big boys around here if you wanna use the word hell you go right ahead. Those Heil tweeters are about as good as it gets.


Mike
 
Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
Great score Gonzo. Oh and were all big boys around here if you wanna use the word hell you go right ahead. Those Heil tweeters are about as good as it gets.
Mike

I wasn't censoring myself. I was just being clever.

Here are the pics I promised lsat week. I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions for replacement woofers. The surrounds are shot and I suspect the woofers weren't too great in the first place.

The tweeters aren't the mondo ones everyone lusts after. I've only seen those once in my life. Some guy at the Grayslake hamfest had a pair.
 
I was curious to know what the Fortura 8's looked like, someone once told me they were bookshelf size (not nearly!).

I have a pair of Fortura 12's myself, and have read somewhere (audioasylum?) of people replacing the woofers in amt's with altec's (414/416's) with some success. Maybe something to consider...

The most common criticism I've seen regarding the use of Heil tweeters is the crossover point. I read that the AMT's XO freq is much higher (2500-3000?); with the Fortura 12, it's 1500; not sure about the 8. Personally, I think they sound fine, I just keep them about 18" away from the wall.

Here are some pics with the label on the back
 
Originally posted by vertex
I was curious to know what the Fortura 8's looked like, someone once told me they were bookshelf size (not nearly!).

The most common criticism I've seen regarding the use of Heil tweeters is the crossover point. I read that the AMT's XO freq is much higher (2500-3000?); with the Fortura 12, it's 1500; not sure about the 8. Personally, I think they sound fine, I just keep them about 18" away from the wall.

Interesting that the 12s are a two-way design like the 8s. I would have thought the TOTL Fortura would have been a 3 way design.

I probably won't get around to fixing these anytime soon but I'll update this thread when I do. I'll check out the details on the back to see where the AMTs kick in.
 
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I decided to avoid doing some housework and I refoamed the woofers. To my dismay, I found out they may not be the original drivers. While the speakers were half-assed glued in, there was another set of mounting holes about 3/4" offset from the other.

Anyways, the crossover for the Fortura 8s is 1500Hz - just like the 12s.

What color is your cabinet? Mine is blonde laminate covering a nice dark wood (real wood!). I wonder if the laminate was factory or a home job.

When I first powered up the speakers (with a Sansui 7900Z), the tweeters were dead. I freaked...until I adjusted the extremely dirty tweeter level control off a dead spot.

I might try to team this up with an Infinity powered sub I dug up if I can find a suitable replacement driver.
 
My cabinet is dark (maple?), laminated, looks original.

Regarding the tweeters, mine didn't work on either one at first . There is a reset button on the back of mine, which I tried using, but was jammed. I took out the crossover, and fixed the reset; worked fine.

I suspect this is the reason why these speakers were abandoned.
 
The Heil in your model appears to be of a style intermediate between the big Heil, sometimes referred to as the 'grosser' Heil, and the smaller (kieiner?) forward-firing-only job.

Whichever it is, you may not be aware that much to the consternation of ESS in Sacremento, at least 2 European companies are manufacturing and marketing 2-way speaker systems incorporating their own versions of Oskar Heil's Air Motion Transformer. How good it sounds in comparison with the original I do not know. But they are extremely expensive, and not nearly as substantial, with the larger model having (I think) a single 7" woofer (a price of $5K-$6 sticks in my mind, and I suspect that if I had paid it, in my craw, as well).

In my 58 years, almost 50 of which I have mispent as an audiophile, I've heard a lot of stuff, and put together some whack-job systems. Currently occupying the place of the Beveridge 2SWs I sold in October is a system comprised by stacks of 3 big Heils per channel wired in parallel. Each stack sits upon the folded bass corner horn of a University S9. The stacks are powered by Kenwood LO-5 monoblocks, which are very stable driving the roughly 2 ohm load. The bass horns are driven by a 35-watt per channel Ace Audio amp. Crossover is by Rane, and is set at 500Hz/24dB per octave.

The other night, without any prompting from me or ulterior motive on her part, Molly, my 11-year old daughter, who, devotion to her clarinet notwithstanding, has never remarked on the sound quality of Daddy's many hi-fis, said "Gee . . . that viola sounds so real." Shortly afterwards, my tolerant-but-taciturn wife, whose most recent postive comment about a piece of equipment was 28 years ago ("What do you call those ugly things? Quads? They sound nice, though."), remarked "Now, that sound is really right and true."

Right! And true, no less! I've been waiting oh, so long to hear those words. But it really is: detailed, transparent, gobs of dynamic range. They can be enjoyed with complete satisfaction at any level. Despite the abundance of high-frequency energy present in the room, the sound is never edgy or hard. Heil-ly recommended.
 
Bad, bad, bad design - slap, slap, slap

After I refoamed the woofers, I ran them off a Sansui 7900Z and I was disappointed with their performance. The bass was nasaly and thin on the bottom. The tweeter l-pads were staticy when I tried to adjust them so I opened up the cabs again to clean them out.

Well, I figured out why the l-pads in this speaker went bad. The acoustic foam inside the speaker is disintegrating and the dust got inside the open case l-pad. I tried to blow it out with compressed air and then I hit it with contact cleaner but its still scratchy & itchy.

I suspect I'll have to replace the l-pads and maybe the acoustic foam too. If the stuff is disintegrating and coating the guts of the speaker with foam-cooties, I sure as hell don't want to breathe the crap when it gets blown out the port.
 
I was really disappointed in the sound of these speakers. Even when I drove them with my newly repaired Sansui AU-9500, the bass was thin. The famed AMT tweeter sounded smooth but it seemed to be lacking in the highest octaves.

I had high hopes for these guys and I know they could do a LOT better. I'm not expecting room shaking bass from an 8" ported cabinet but the AMT has real potential.

First of all, I think I should replace the membranes on the tweeters. Somebody said you can get replacements for $30. I just emailed ESS and hopefully they have them.

Secondly I need to replace the l-pads and the internal cabinet foam. Are there different kinds of padding? I need to check with the guys at Madisound...
 
Can anyone out there tell me if the pair of Fortura 10s I rescued from the trash truck are worth keeping or should I set out at the curb. Gospic
 
gospic said:
Can anyone out there tell me if the pair of Fortura 10s I rescued from the trash truck are worth keeping or should I set out at the curb. Gospic

Wow, this thread is a flashback. Have you tried listening to them yet?
 
Could you describe the tens? I imagine they are just 10" two way versions of the Fortura Eights I own. Better bass extension but you might have problems in the 500-2kHz region since few 10" woofers perform well there.

If they were out on the curb, you can bet that one of two things sidelined them. Either rotted woofer foam (easily repaired) or a "dead" tweeter caused by a dirty tweeter level pot (easily fixed with contact cleaner).

Pics please!
 
Fortura "Turtorial"

Whoa! Dude! After 30 years of meeting zero people who'd ever heard of, much less owned these speakers, I join AudioKarma and find a whole nest of Fortura-ites. What are the odds?

I've had mine apart, repaired them, stuffed them, sealed them, coated them, biamped them, sold them and had them given back to me, and finally, they were my son's speakers for several years. For those of you who are used to modern speakers (which, trust me, are generally much, much better than the average affordable Seventies speaker) and thus find the Forturas lacking, or who've just picked up a battered pair and wonder whether they're garbage, a few home truths:

1) ESS made these speakers but didn't put their name on them. I suspect they were yet another "private label" job for stereo shop chains, made to sell at an attractively low price. This cheapness is reflected in the construction.

The complete Pedestal (ie, floorstanding) Fortura line was models 8, 10, and 12, and as you've guessed the model number is the woofer size. There was a corresponding Bookshelf series but examples are very rare. They all crossed over to the Heil at 1500 Hz, which was pushing it, but that was ESS all over. The 12's crossover network actually had compensation built into it for the honkiness resulting from such a large woofer being forced to reproduce what amounts to treble frequencies.


2) The Fortura tweeter may be the best ESS ever made, at least potentially. That's an outrageous statement, but consider this: This is the only inexpensive Heil that's the equal of the big Heil on the most expensive ESS lines-- first, it's a dipole, just like its big bruder, and it crosses over only an octave higher: 1500 Hz versus 800 Hz. Due to its small size it has much better vertical dispersion than the big Heil and fewer problems caused by diffraction. It also has to work much harder, which explains the lousy circuit breakers ESS figured would be needed-- but they aren't, and I'll explain that momentarily.


4) The cabinet was obviously designed for looks rather than low diffraction, which wasn't seen as a big virtue back then. It would be best to saw off the decorative side panels until they're flush with the faces of the cabinet on the top and front, but ouch, even I've never been able to bring myself to do that.

A bigger problem is that the Fortura cabinets, sturdy as they are, were designed before Thiele-Small. They're not tuned properly for their woofers. The biggest and quickest improvement any Fortura owner can make is to plug the port. This assumes you're using the original woofers, which by now won't have their original surrounds. We'll get back to that in a moment too.


5) The best sounding Fortura, at least theoretically, is the Fortura 8, because it doesn't make a big cheap woofer try to operate well out of its "safe" area-- it only tries to make a small cheap woofer operate outside its safe area, and since a smaller cone is a stiffer cone, that's an improvement. Today, no speaker designer would dare try to market a two-way that crossed a 12" woofer over at 1500 Hz. By that point, even the Fortura 8's woofer is starting to beam and enter cone breakup. These weren't horrible woofers, and they had Alnico magnets (at least the 12 inchers did), but they were simple, cheap straight-sided fiber cone CTS woofers, and they weren't up to the tricks ESS was trying to make them perform. A 6" woofer would have been just right, but nobody would've bought a Fortura 6.

By the way, this criticism holds true of the AMT series of speakers as well, but at least those had Bextrene and polypropylene cones.


6) By now, there are zero Fortura woofers with intact surrounds-- any intact ones you see either have replacement surrounds or are replacement woofers. Seventies Foam Rot is also why you don't see any Fortura grilles-- by 1990 all had disintegrated into crumbly sticky awfulness. Too bad-- the original waterfall-style grille with its vertical ribs was quite handsome, even unique.

Considering all that, the best course of action would be to measure the cabinet and port and find a good modern woofer that fits that tuning. If you re-surround a Fortura woofer, you'll have to remove it, which leads us to


7) The woofers are glued in. Badly. A bottle opener helps to pry them loose. T-nuts and bolts are a good idea to replace the puny wood screws. Use silicone to seal the woofer airtight.


8) Back to the tweeter and that @#&$! circuit breaker: If you have a powerful amp and can hear when an amp has run out of oomph, you won't blow the Heils. Go inside and bypass the breakers, which stick, go intermittent, blow partially (that always sounds good!) and cause far more trouble than they're worth.

So why did ESS install the little #$%@ers? Back in the day when there were no powered subs and receivers had only 20 or 30 watts per channel and were regularly driven into clipping (which couldn't be heard by our primitive ears), you could easily blow a tweeter when you overdrove an amp that wasn't powerful enough. These days ears are more educated, better speakers make clipping more clearly audible and average amps have a bit more power anyway.

Sounds like a replacement L-pad for the tweeter would be a good idea for some folks. Mine are noisy but serviceable, but others might not be so fortunate.


9) The back of the tweeter was originally damped with the same cotton used for the cabinet, but by the time the speaker reaches you, it may be gone, but this is easy to fix. Cotton balls (preferably compressed by ironing them or some other way-- dryer lint may work even better) stuffed in the Heil's rear slots can really help. The 1st-gen Heil is subject to twisting and other nonideal motions when it's driven hard (which explains the damping/restraining net you see from the AMT-1A onward), and you get rattling and buzzing at certain frequencies. The mini-Heil has to work very hard, and the Fortura crossovers were good for their day but hopeless by today's standards, which doesn't make a mini-Heil's job easy. Here's where experimentation with damping methods can pay off.

10) The speaker may or may not sound better with the tweeter's leads reversed. Try it both ways.



Even unmodded, the Forturas blew away Advents and other super-popular speakers of the day-- on the top end. The underdamped (ie, mistuned) low end, however, was something else. Still, with a Dyna 400 amp, they could blow you out of a room without trouble. That's what we did in the '70s-- blow ourselves out of places. That's what it's all about, isn't it?

Here's a shot of one of my Fortura 12s, the one whose woofer I was too late to fix with silicone (probably the wrong method, but hey). That's an inexpensive Eclipse polypropylene replacement which luckily worked reasonably well:
MyLittleHeil-a.jpg

You can see the putty on the pole pieces to try to round some of the sharp edges. What you can't see are the damping wads shoved into the tweeter's slots on the back.
 
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Wow. Nice Fortura-torial! :)

The internal stuffing is crumbling on my pair and I think that led to the foam-crumbs mucking up the l-pad (the crumbs get in through the l-pad vents). I plan on replacing the internal foam eventually (as well as the L-pads). Was going to replace the diaphragms too but ESS seems to have disappeared. Website is down and phone numbers are dead :(

I damp the tweeter's back-wave with some leftover wall treatment foam a friend had left over from a basement listening room project. Just stuffed a big chunk into the rear of the tweeter section. Not quite as cute as Echowars' use of Sylvester the Cat. Thufferin' Thuckotash!

If you do an Ak search on Heil AMTs you'll find mention of some nice DIY speakers that use the big Heil. Not sure how well they would translate to the Fortura Heil but it sounds like you would have fun playing with it.

Looking forward to more posts of yours. Welcome aboard!
 
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gonzothegreat said:
The internal stuffing is crumbling on my pair
Internal stuffing crumbling? Are you sure it isn't just the remnants of an old woofer surround? ESS used waste cotton (mine still had little spool-like things in it) for stuffing. I guess it's possible that somewhere along the way someone tried replacing the cotton stuffing in your speakers with some kind of foam. That would be weird but weirder things have been done. And besides, a ported speaker cabinet should be lined with dense absorptive material, not stuffed.

By the way, sometimes a yogurt cup plugs the port nicely. You can also use socks your kids left on the floor. We call that the Sock Mod.


Was going to replace the diaphragms too..
How come? Are they burned out?

The Fortura mini-Heils were driven so hard that often they simply went intermittent, but not because the diaphragm itself melted (though I've seen that too), but because of how sloppily ESS made the connection between the lead wire and the foil on the diaphragm. The foil is merely crimped (!) around the leads, and if this crimping isn't nearly airtight, arcing can take place and destroy the connection. Fortunately, this can be fixed with a needle and some conductive paint.


I damp the tweeter's back-wave with some leftover wall treatment foam a friend had left over from a basement listening room project. Just stuffed a big chunk into the rear of the tweeter section. Not quite as cute as Echowars' use of Sylvester the Cat.

I couldn't figure out what Sylvester had to do with it until I located the thread where EchoWars makes the very interesting statement that the rear radiation of a Heil is in phase with the front radiation. I'm sure that was a typo. It's the out-of-phaseness of the rear radiation that contributes to the dipole Heils' soundstage-enhancing effect and the controlled directionality that the figure-eight pattern provides. And yes, you can muffle the backwave as EW is doing, which changes the figure-eight to a hypercardioid, but what I was talking about is resonance in the diaphragm itself. Killing that requires something soft but dense that presses against the diaphragm's folds, just hard enough to stop the rattles. The end effect is the same, a reduction in the rear output of the mini-Heil, but it's an acceptable tradeoff for a much smoother sound and the side benefit (but it could also be a liability) is wider dispersion in front. I used polyester "cotton" balls, but little hunks of foam rubber might work too.


Not sure how well they would translate to the Fortura Heil...
The Fortura mini-Heil is of the same generation as the original 1973 AMT-1. Any mods suggested for one should apply to the other, I'd think.

Looking forward to more posts of yours. Welcome aboard!
Thanks for the nice welcome, and keep us posted on the progress of your Forturas. They are deeply flawed yet very enjoyable speakers, especially if you correct the biggest of ESS's design oopsies.
 
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