Shure M97XE vs ORTOFON RED??
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KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Hi,
Either cartridge is a fine match for a 1225 tonearm. This machine has a low mass tonearm. I think you'll be happy with either.
Either cartridge is a fine match for a 1225 tonearm. This machine has a low mass tonearm. I think you'll be happy with either.
hakaplan
Needs professional help
The Shure M97xE is NOT nude. If you doubt this, check the documentation at vinylengine.com. When Shure made nude ellipticals, the designation ended with a "D" as in "M91ED."
I disagree with this completely. Maybe the fact that I have never heard a Shure that I love has something to do with it....
Anyhow, the Ortofon is a NEW, clean sheet of paper design. Yes, Ortofon is actually using modern technology to produce new and better designs. To me, it seems that Shure has pretty well given up on phono cartridges. The tooling for the M97 is long since paid for, so they can keep turning them out on the cheap. If Shure was truly interested, they would have thrown some engineering resources into the V15-V to keep it in production.
It actuallly begs the question of whether or not there are phono catridge engineers left at Shure.
Keep in mind that there is a LOT more to the sound of a phono cartridge then the size and shape of the stylus....
E
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:withstpd:
Beobloke
Super Member
I must confess that, although we, of course, all have different tastes, i have never quite understood the following that the M-97XE has on here (or the Audio Technica AT-440MLa for that matter!).
Don't get me wrong, it tracks well and sounds fine, but you can do so much better than 'fine' in terms of modern cartridges. Back in the 70s when the Shure was designed, magnets were weaker, meaning that manufacturers wound more wire onto the coils to keep output high. The added inductance of the extra wire drops output in the midrange and tends to mean that the sound is 'safer' but less dynamic.
Modern cartridges are a world ahead of their forebears in this respect and, whilst i still have a passing fondness for the old Shures, and a fanaticism for virtually anything vintage audio-wise, i always stick to a modern cartridge.
IMHO, the Ortofon 2M red is the one to go for.
Don't get me wrong, it tracks well and sounds fine, but you can do so much better than 'fine' in terms of modern cartridges. Back in the 70s when the Shure was designed, magnets were weaker, meaning that manufacturers wound more wire onto the coils to keep output high. The added inductance of the extra wire drops output in the midrange and tends to mean that the sound is 'safer' but less dynamic.
Modern cartridges are a world ahead of their forebears in this respect and, whilst i still have a passing fondness for the old Shures, and a fanaticism for virtually anything vintage audio-wise, i always stick to a modern cartridge.
IMHO, the Ortofon 2M red is the one to go for.
I'm and idiot and I'll argue with you! But, duh - I mostly agree IMHO the Shure M97eX is a fine cartridge if all you play is Rock and CW. That's the niche mine has ended up in. It is now destined to decorate the living room TT so my wife can play any background stuff she wants. It'll be out on loan here and there with one of the Empires or the Excel doing back up duty.
I love my OM. It's my go-to cartridge if I want punch and big bass. But, it's not stock. It was used and I installed a Turntableneedles.com 541-de-copy (Jico) stylus, so I can't say how it would sound with an OEM stylus (and I don't care to drop the $$ for an OEM to find out). I've ordered another of that stylus just so I'll have it on hand in case something happens to the one that's running
If you can believe all you read, the RED is a much improved version of the OM technology. Now I don't think you should be without a Shure. I just think you can get a used Premier (M75) off the 'bay for like $20 and get an after market stylus (Jico) for it. Have your Shure for the times when you want that middle of the road (safe - good description) sound, or when you have an LP that does not match well with the Orto, but get the RED if you can
IMHO the Shure M97eX is a fine cartridge if all you play is Rock and CW. That's the niche mine has ended up in. It is now destined to decorate the living room TT so my wife can play any background stuff she wants. It'll be out on loan here and there with one of the Empires or the Excel doing back up duty.I love my OM. It's my go-to cartridge if I want punch and big bass. But, it's not stock. It was used and I installed a Turntableneedles.com 541-de-copy (Jico) stylus, so I can't say how it would sound with an OEM stylus (and I don't care to drop the $$ for an OEM to find out). I've ordered another of that stylus just so I'll have it on hand in case something happens to the one that's running
If you can believe all you read, the RED is a much improved version of the OM technology. Now I don't think you should be without a Shure. I just think you can get a used Premier (M75) off the 'bay for like $20 and get an after market stylus (Jico) for it. Have your Shure for the times when you want that middle of the road (safe - good description) sound, or when you have an LP that does not match well with the Orto, but get the RED if you can
lini
just me...
Just for the record: which Ortofon Red - VinylMaster, Rondo or 2M?
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
Fred Longworth
audio fanatic
I think the 2M Red is being referred to here. Note that the 2M Red is the least expensive cartridge in their current-production line. Realistically, I would consider the 2M Blue to be a better match to the Shure M97XE. But then, I would place my vote on the Ortofon.
Fred
Fred
lini
just me...
Bigerik: New design? The 2Ms??? Uhm... Actually, I'd hardly call further refining the old LM/OM/OM Super generator, putting it into a new, fancy looking case (body) and swapping the FG70 for a Shibata stylus on the top model a new, clean sheet of paper design. To me, that's just another variation - and not even an unproblematic one, due to the ample dimensions of the body as well as the more critical reaction of the generator on cable & input capacity...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
P.S.: To be fair though, I'd think it's hardly possibly anymore for any maker to come up with anything really new in the realm of phono carts based on electromagnetic induction - as more or less any interesting type of generator design, magnet, cantilever and coil material as well as stylus shape have already been tried for several decades...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
P.S.: To be fair though, I'd think it's hardly possibly anymore for any maker to come up with anything really new in the realm of phono carts based on electromagnetic induction - as more or less any interesting type of generator design, magnet, cantilever and coil material as well as stylus shape have already been tried for several decades...
You must grant me a little hyperbole when making my case....
Anyhow, there is certainly some interesting new technology in the 2M series, admittedly more in the black and bronze. New, high tech material for the bodies (Noryl, a plastic/glass combination). Upgraded silver coated wires. Improvements, if not radical changes to the motor assembly, leading to a noticeably different sound and much higher output.
Again, compared to the Shure in question, a huge leap up in performance.
Vintageman1
Well-Known Member
I continue to use M97's in all my turntables. That being said, the word "boring" is something I have come to realise with that cartridge. A fellow on another group I belong to highly rates the Ortofon Red and considers it the best bang for the buck. Even though he is a dealer and I have never met him, over the past few years I have come to respect his honesty and knowledge. I'm going for the red. Any thoughts/opinions on using it on a stock SL 1200 arm?
lini
just me...
You must grant me a little hyperbole when making my case....
Well, granted - but then you also have to grant me playing the devil's advocate, especially when I think your case is rather weak...
Well, first of all, Noryl isn't generally a combination of glass and plastic. There are plenty of different Noryl types, some available with glass reinforcement. If you want more info, GEPlastics.com offers quite a bit... Also, Noryl isn't any new for Ortofon - e.g. you'll also find it on their more recent MCs Samba, Salsa and Tango as well as the older MC1/MC 3 Turbo, X5 MC and X1 MCP...
And if you look into that generator design, it really is just yet another version of their old VMS design. And the tuning trend is quite easily visible, too: LM series had 600 Ohm, 500 mH and recommended load capacity of 400 pF, OM series as well as 305/310/320(U) had 750 Ohm, 450 mH and 200 to 600 pF and OM Super series as well as 5x0MkII had 1000 Ohm, 580 mH and 200 to 400 pF. And now we have 2M with 1300/1200 Ohm, 700/630 mH and 150 to 300 pF. Well, and whether it's the silver plating on the OFC wire that makes a difference or maybe just less windings - who knows?
So, in my understanding, that all in all rather boils down to further development of an old design than to a radically new one.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
I have heard the Ortofon 2m Red, the Shure 97 and the AT440mla on the same table through the same electronics (McIntosh C220 and MC275 through La Scalas, cartridges on an AR TT)..pecking order is as follows:
!. AT440
2. Ortofon 2m Red
3 Shure 97
The AT is a better all around performer...the Ortofon is stunning for the price...the Shure is nice, but laid back too much for me.
I used a friend's Ortofon to compare.....then immediately ordered one, I liked it that much! Get them before the price increase which will come just like it did with the AT440....
!. AT440
2. Ortofon 2m Red
3 Shure 97
The AT is a better all around performer...the Ortofon is stunning for the price...the Shure is nice, but laid back too much for me.
I used a friend's Ortofon to compare.....then immediately ordered one, I liked it that much! Get them before the price increase which will come just like it did with the AT440....
Well, granted - but then you also have to grant me playing the devil's advocate, especially when I think your case is rather weak...
Well, first of all, Noryl isn't generally a combination of glass and plastic. There are plenty of different Noryl types, some available with glass reinforcement. If you want more info, GEPlastics.com offers quite a bit... Also, Noryl isn't any new for Ortofon - e.g. you'll also find it on their more recent MCs Samba, Salsa and Tango as well as the older MC1/MC 3 Turbo, X5 MC and X1 MCP...
And if you look into that generator design, it really is just yet another version of their old VMS design. And the tuning trend is quite easily visible, too: LM series had 600 Ohm, 500 mH and recommended load capacity of 400 pF, OM series as well as 305/310/320(U) had 750 Ohm, 450 mH and 200 to 600 pF and OM Super series as well as 5x0MkII had 1000 Ohm, 580 mH and 200 to 400 pF. And now we have 2M with 1300/1200 Ohm, 700/630 mH and 150 to 300 pF. Well, and whether it's the silver plating on the OFC wire that makes a difference or maybe just less windings - who knows?
So, in my understanding, that all in all rather boils down to further development of an old design than to a radically new one.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
So, you are saying you recommend the Shure over the Ortofon for the OP?
goldear
Certifiable Audio Junkie
My thoughs exactly. And while I have not tried any of Ortofon's newest seiries yet, I have been favorably impressed with the upper-end of the prior OM Series, like the OM-30 Super. That is one MM cartridge that reminds me more of an MC sonically, and represents a good value in an inexpensive cartridge IMHO.I disagree with this completely. Maybe the fact that I have never heard a Shure that I love has something to do with it....
Anyhow, the Ortofon is a NEW, clean sheet of paper design. Yes, Ortofon is actually using modern technology to produce new and better designs. To me, it seems that Shure has pretty well given up on phono cartridges. The tooling for the M97 is long since paid for, so they can keep turning them out on the cheap. If Shure was truly interested, they would have thrown some engineering resources into the V15-V to keep it in production.
It actuallly begs the question of whether or not there are phono catridge engineers left at Shure.
Keep in mind that there is a LOT more to the sound of a phono cartridge then the size and shape of the stylus....
E
