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New CD player vrs Old CD player

blackfly

blackfly

Fidelius Claritus
I have a bit of a dilemmna and need some advice/ideas.

I am looking to upgrade my 18 year old Pioneer PDM 630 CD player (it is the type with the cartridge system). It has never failed me nor broken down. In excellent shape too with lots of cartidges and the single disc player cartridge. Sounds nice too. My system has grown up and not including the CD player is worth about $20k+. I am looking to get a new CD player of reference quality for my CD collection that is continuing to grow. I like Bryston and have my eye on their new BCD 1 player that is highly rated.

But what about very good players from earlier years, say, the excellent DENON DCD 3520? There is one for sale locally, and if you look inside of it (and pick it up, it is fabulously heavy for a CD player) you will know immediately it is quality. The specs for the Pioneer and Denon player are, ironically, identical (both are 20 bit, 8fs) but obviously the Denon is the superior machine, in THEORY.

Would I be better to just ante up and get the Bryston (I am aware of the cost and it does not bother me) or would the Denon be a good buy, still today? Would the Denon give me 20 years of good use, given mature, excellent care? I can expect that from a new Bryston, but I am sure there are many older excellent players out there that could be worth it. I am told these Denon units are still sought after. The price of the one locally for sale is $700US.

Help!!! I am only asking in that with digital mediums, can one expect a long life from an old player? As said, my Pioneer PDM 630 is 18 years old and still going strong. But I have been told I am lucky (the player was $400 in 1991). But the modern Bryston is also upsampling to 192/24. :scratch2:

Advice is welcome.
 
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Hmmm. ... "IN THEORY" ... sounds like you have doubts.

What I would do is compare specs of the Denon to the Bryston. Check reviews reliability if available.

Hopefully you can audition the Denon.

That said: Why are you really considering the Denon? Expecting another 20 years from it is a gamble. It's a gamble now. Lasers wear and its history is unknown. These are the risks of vintage. I would buy it if you want to save money and like it's looks enough to take the risk.

If money is not an issue I would seriously audition the Bryston and buy it or another player if it sounds good to you. You would be protected by warranty and perhaps in-store return policy.

Those would be the economic thought processes to me. I have found if I do my research the stuff I bought new 20 years ago have treated me well and become collectable vintage today.

Vintage I buy is more for entertainment, value and hope that I can squeeze more life out of it. Longevity is a chance. You got to know its limitations.

Maybe in 18 years you can brag about being a "pioneer" buying the Bryston new before it became vintage collectable. ;)
 
My understanding, which is very limited, is that in the last five to ten years DACs have gotten significantly better while transports have gotten worse. I think the best way to go is to get a respected and reliable transport and run it through a great modern DAC.
 
My system has grown up and not including the CD player is worth about $20k+. I am looking to get a new CD player of reference quality....
Click to expand...

Yep, it's time to get a CDP that's on par with the rest of your system. For reference quality, Musical Fidelity, Cary, Wadia, Ayre, Esoteric and Audio Aero are what you should be looking at.
 
I agree with above writings. The transport mechanism and power supply of older equipment are much better. To me newer DAC alone are improved somewhat with newer stuff but the opamp technology is the biggest improvement.

I practically own all Denon DCD-xxxx models from DCD-1420 all the way up to DCD-3560 and I have modded with very simple parts like newer electrolytic capacitors and opams and the sound is day and night. I also ownd some decent Yamaha CDX-1100U, CAL Tercet III, Nakamichi OMS-7AII and so on. I can't stand the sound quality of newer stuff, meaning 5 years or less UNLESS you get in to $2000 and up.

The problem with Denon is the laser pickup unit are getting expensive to replace. Most DCD-xxxx use KSS-151A or the KSS-123A. Both can be obtained for about $150 plus shipping and/or tax. To me the Denons sound the best.

The 3520 is a good buy if you can get it for less than $300. Great buy if less than $200.

I have had some Pioneers but I didn't like their sound.

wsjoe
wsjoe
 
wsjoe:

Thanks a lot for the information. I myself have always liked Denon, and I am aware of the quality they represent. But despite all this a part of me is immediately leery of leaning on a CD player that is about 20 years old as my long term reference. I think I can get 20 years out of a Bryston no problem. I am not so hot about the fact the CD tray is plastic (a huge no-no on a player this costly) but maybe it will be addressed.

I was hoping to get a response such as "the 3520 is a MUST have for digital. By far the best, even today" but no one can claim that.

In terms of transports, yes, they did make it better back then. But open up the 3520 and then the Bryston BCD 1 and it is like opening up a modern computer compared to one 20 years ago. It took more to do the work 20 years ago. Of course modern players will have less in them today, but it is whether that less translates into more. I am sure no one will doubt a modern Accuphase CD player is simple but superlative.

I actually got to hear the DCD 3520 on a less than stellar setup and it was awesome. But whether it can remain that is a longshot. I thank all for the advice and think I will select a new player, but perhaps I will look at others as well as the Bryston. The selection will be made very soon.......
 
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TERRA1:

I think you may be more right than you think. Most Bryston BCD 1's I see for sale are quickly scooped up and this is the first player they have made, and have had ALL this time to think about it. It could well be that it will be a collectable. To say nothing of the fact being Canadian myself means I am helping fellow brothers and sisters, which matters. And the sound......

Not to say I would not choose another, but it seems tough to beat. I was only examining if older, TOTL units are worth it.
 
blackfly, I've also been thinking about a new CD/SACD player and have focused on the the new Sony SCD-XA5400ES. But after some research I've decided to go the full digital PC/music server route. As has been discussed the mechanical mechanism of these players will not last forever and in fact may detract from the audio playback capabilities. There are plenty of options but since I'm happy with iTunes I'm going to stream lossless audio through an AppleTV or Airport Express into a nice DAC. So far my experimentation has yielded good results with the audio quality aspect. I have a thread on the subject elsewhere in this forum. Anyway something else to think about.
 
Duffinator:

I have thought about the losses streaming route of music and the fact downloads/computer based music is the future.

Consider: If you computer crashes and you lose your harddrive, you may be out thousands of songs if not backed up. My CD's cannot be lost in the same way. Ditto for LP. Currently, there is no format comparable to the CD in the digitized downloadable format; I realize this will catch up at some point. BUT what point? How long? 5 years? My CD's are right here, waiting to be played at their best. The new CD players are at the pinnicle of CD technology. The player I buy now will last a lifetime, given the quality. In terms of your streaming audio format, I could simply buy the Bryston standalone DAC that is identical to the DAC in the BCD 1. I win again. And still have the CD as a format.

AND I am looking into vinyl. Perhaps a Rega P5. I have NO vinyl at all, so this will be totally new. I cannot wait. The future for the CD may seem bleak but I predict it will survive and from here, it looks like this audiophile could not have it any better. Until I get the player, that is.
 
Before you go plunking money down on the Bryston, you should try to demo some of the players I mentioned above. At a minimum, it will give you an idea of what reference really sounds like.
 
Here's a thought..... go on THAT SITE, and get another 6 disc changer. I've had two, and they rock! Whaddya be out.....40 bucks??

Do they sound as good as my Yamaha CDX-1100u?? No. But they are a heck of a lot more durable, and not finicky at all, unlike the exceptionally flaky Yammie.
 
blackfly said:
Duffinator:

I have thought about the losses streaming route of music and the fact downloads/computer based music is the future.

Consider: If you computer crashes and you lose your harddrive, you may be out thousands of songs if not backed up. My CD's cannot be lost in the same way. Ditto for LP. Currently, there is no format comparable to the CD in the digitized downloadable format; I realize this will catch up at some point. BUT what point? How long? 5 years? My CD's are right here, waiting to be played at their best. The new CD players are at the pinnicle of CD technology. The player I buy now will last a lifetime, given the quality. In terms of your streaming audio format, I could simply buy the Bryston standalone DAC that is identical to the DAC in the BCD 1. I win again. And still have the CD as a format.

AND I am looking into vinyl. Perhaps a Rega P5. I have NO vinyl at all, so this will be totally new. I cannot wait. The future for the CD may seem bleak but I predict it will survive and from here, it looks like this audiophile could not have it any better. Until I get the player, that is.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you have thought it through. BTW, it would be illegal to copy your CD's and not keep them. :D I still have all my CDs and store all my copies on two mirror imaged external hard drives. I store one of the drives off site for safe keeping and sync them every two weeks. If my house burns to the ground I'll still have my backup copies in a safe place. BTW I've been streaming audio to my HT for years but just recently researched streaming lossless to my dedicated stereo system. With the amount of money you are going to spend you could easily have an all digital system that could/should sound better than the equivalent player. Good luck with your new player.
 
My first piece of advice is to audition them, as CD player specs, IMO, are somewhat meaningless. I'm not sure about the Bryston, but I know the Denon is highly regarded, and I was considering getting one for myself if they weren't so expensive. The laser is indeed something you need to take into consideration - just ask anyone with a 7 series Sony player. Copper chassis, aluminum disc tray, but a NLA laser block. If I were you, I would go with the Denon, and spend the extra money for a NOS laser.
 
I have a Denon DCD 3300 and a Sony CDP x777ES. Both are well built and compete very well with the modern players under $2000 that I have heard.
That said, both of them originally sold for more than the Denon 3520 and I got the two of them for less than the price you are being asked to pay.
I would expect the DCD-3520 to sound good but the $700 asking price looks far too high to me.

Here are some links:

Denon DCD 3520

Sony CDP x777ES

David
 
The great thing about the 3520 is it gives you the performers performing in their space without drawing attention to playback.
I recently reinserted a Magnavox CDC 745 changer
and the background was blacker imaging better with a more 3D sound.
The musicians didn't hang together like with the 3520.
I won't even comment on my Cambridge 840c
in my closet.
There must be new players or dacs out there that are believable sounding and have the audiophile qualities we all crave.
Marantz, Audio Note? I'd go for broke and get the best source
 
Thanks for the links David. In fact, I saw the 3520 at a local electronics repair shop (that I know and trust) and it was repairing a 3520 (with rosewood sides, no less) and, yup, it was the laser. I cannot be positive but the laser was hard to track down (as Denon made their own lasers for this unit, not like today where they are outsourced, usually to Phillips). I admit $700 seems high but considering the unit is in my own town there will be no shipping, and on a CD player of about 40lb you are saving about $100 in shipping (insurance, risk). Plus it has the remote.

I am aware that it would be simple to buy it and save the money. But this is no high school project here. I am looking for a front on my system, that I stated, is about $20K as is. Newer units may not have the transports of old but 20 years of digital advancements does do something. For something interesting do what I did: compare how the 3520 and the Bryston look inside the unit. Quite a contrast. I would be remiss if I did not mention my amp is a 6 month old Bryston 14B SST. Now you know why I am so partial to Bryston, among other reasons.

I like Accuphase too, but they are WAY too expensive to justify. I am not really partial to top loading players (I prefer trays, for a litany of reasons) and despite living in Vancouver, BC you would be suprised to learn choice is actually limited.

Does make for interesting free time, though. Thank God for an understanding wife (she actually suggested I get another stereo stand now for the growing system, and mine is about $1K). I guess she realizes TT take up room.
 
Thanks Matel. I myself use a pair of Paradigm S8v2's and they are outstanding. I think Paradigm is by far one of the most underrated speaker makers out there. To say nothing of the fact they make their OWN drivers no less. The coherence and unity of the S8 is something you can only experience over time. It definitely shows the company though it out and designed everything together, rather than designing a speaker with the limitations and quirks of "someone else's" drivers.

Specifically, is there anything you can tell me about your 3520 in terms of issues, not sonically? Is the remote prone to crapping out? Has your laser being replaced (related, do you smoke around it? This is the biggest reason CD players have issues). I am aware of the fit and finish but expecting it to me my front end reference means I expect it to last another 10 years for sure. The money spent on a used 3520 could easily go to the new player.

Funny enough, as I stated in an earlier post, there is a repair shop that has one (no remote) that is being worked on. They plan to ask north of $1K for it, making the used one for $700 seem like a bargain (with remote).

I did not think this would be so hard a decision.
 
If you are looking at the one on eBay send the seller an email and offer something less than the asking price which seems a high to me. A lower price will help if you decide to resell it. If it's local you can save on shipping (and potential damage). I say give it a shot and you can always resell it and buy another player. The journey is part of the fun in this hobby. :thmbsp:
 
Yeah I love my little Digms. They give me the vocal body I was looking for.
I have had no issues at all with player or remote on the 3520.
Seriously this Magnavox changer is a revelation to me and shows all the ways that the sound can be improved on the Denon.
Sonically...
I've read that using the balanced outs takes it up a notch.
I keep switching back and forth. There is an undeniable togetherness to the sound of the 3520 but you pay a little for it.
 
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