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Best tube amp design? Experienced opinions

sonix

sonix

Well-Known Member
Hello all tube admireres,

I would like to know your opinions on what you think the best tube amp design is and how the sound reproduction is affected.

From my I know of three basic designs. The push pull, Single ended triode,and the output less tube designs. I would like to know which one you preffer and why. I understand that sertain music, like rock usually requires a more powerfull amp to sound good and instrumental sounds good with the lower wattage amps.

I currently use a Sansui 1000a which is a push pull design 40w pch, 4x 7591A EH output tubes. I seems to cover all the bases pretty good. It seems to sound best with Instrumental, classical, vocals music. I know that tubes like the horn loaded drivers and efficient speakers.

What is your knowledge and experience.
 
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Sorry for a couple of typing misstakes. I should of proof read it right away not when it got posted. You all know what I meant.:D

Thanks.
 
sonix said:
Hello all tube admireres,

I would like to know your opinions on what you think the best tube amp design is and how the sound reproduction is affected.

From my I know of three basic designs. The push pull, Single ended triode,and the output less tube designs. I would like to know which one you preffer and why. I understand that sertain music, like rock usually requires a more powerfull amp to sound good and instrumental sounds good with the lower wattage amps.

I currently use a Sansui 1000a which is a push pull design 40w pch, 4x 7591A EH output tubes. I seems to cover all the bases pretty good. It seems to sound best with Instrumental, classical, vocals music. I know that tubes like the horn loaded drivers and efficient speakers.

What is your knowledge and experience.
Click to expand...

Sonix, You have a PM.

SET12 :smoke:
 
Your quesiton has far too wide of a scope to it. There are dosens of different topologies for Push-pull tube-amps alone. Such sweeping generalizaitons are pretty-much useless IMO. The execution of the chosen topology makes a far bigger difference than the topology itself in most cases.
 
goldear said:
There are dosens of different topologies for Push-pull tube-amps alone. Such sweeping generalizaitons are pretty-much useless IMO.
Click to expand...

I´m with Goldear all the way. There are plenty of different implementations, to use a different term, for SET as well. Think directly or indirectly heated output valves, transformer or capacitor coupled stages, SRPP, cathode followers, parallel-feed, you name it.

One thing I can tell you. I know which are some of the best Tube amps I ever heard. One was the Audio Note SET Ongaku, and another was a DIY SET with Type 45 output tubes, pumping out just short of 1 watt / channel ( yes you read that right ) that sounded out of this world into a pair of Lowther Acousta Horns. OTOH I was also mesmerized by some 300B´s in Push-Pull output configuration that sounded ever so sweet into a pair of modern JMLab- Focal speakers.

Sorry, I doubt you´ll get a "The best of" type of reply on this one.
 
I'll agree with others here, almost a troll like question. I have OTLs , SETs and push-pull in my collection from the likes of Futterman, Berning,Wyetech, VTL, Marantz ,Citation and others. None of them are perfect. However, each of them on a given speaker on a given recording can be captivating.

Heck, you could go over to the good guys at the Mac forum and even they can't agree on what model is best... and they gush over everything Mac..

Blondes, brunettes or redheads? who are the most beautiful?

Kcin
 
Kcin, very good analogy: "Blondes, brunettes or redheads? who are the most beautiful?"

Easy answer though - the female ones.

But when it comes to getting a dirty job done, it takes a........:)
 
Well, Actually, If we all wanted to post in a never ending thread, we could put out the 4 core circuit designs and go from there. There are hundreds of variations of these 4 basic designs but they all have their own flavors.
Individuals like the flavor variations for individual reasons.

1- Mullard 520 circuit/ users are Marantz, McIntosh, Eico, Citation, and others
2- Williamson circuit/ users are Heathkit, Dynaco and others
3- Cathodyne circuit/ users are Dyna and others
4- Hegeman circuit/ users are Citation, Lafayette, RCA and others

The Williamson is the core circuit for 1/2 the guitar amps out there too. I found this out when I rebuilt my old 37' CMI guitar amp. My favorite amp, and it unusually uses all carbon pile resistors. PP w/a host of cool old tubes 83v,2-6B5's, 6A6 and a 75.

A very interesting topic IMO but as endless as individuality.

I didnt come up with all this by the way. Im just regurgitating what Ive heard and read and then by investigation to be true.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the designs resound mentioned are all push-pull pentode output stages, so thats four ways to do one basic topology. There are also single end pentode, single end triode, push-pull triode, paralell pentode, parallel triode, push-pull-parallel triode and pentode, etc. There are also multiple ways of implementing each basic topology. So many variations exist simply because there is no "best" design for all needs.
 
gadget73 said:
If I'm not mistaken, the designs resound mentioned are all push-pull pentode output stages, so thats four ways to do one basic topology. There are also single end pentode, single end triode, push-pull triode, paralell pentode, parallel triode, push-pull-parallel triode and pentode, etc. There are also multiple ways of implementing each basic topology. So many variations exist simply because there is no "best" design for all needs.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. I did tunnel that thought without clarifiing.
 
Thank you for your responses everyone. I knew that this would be a tough one to answer. Sorry if it seemed like a stupid question which it probably is. This just gives you all a hint of my own knowledge in this subject.

I just wanted a genaral feel which circuit design most people prefer.

Personally I like to listed to Instrumental, classical, Jazz and some light rock.

My speakers are Sansui Sp 3200 and Sp 2700. They sound really good with my Sansui 1000A. Speakers have horn tweeters and horn ambience speaker, probably around 100db efficiency.:thmbsp:
 
resound said:
Well, Actually, If we all wanted to post in a never ending thread, we could put out the 4 core circuit designs and go from there. There are hundreds of variations of these 4 basic designs but they all have their own flavors.
Individuals like the flavor variations for individual reasons.

1- Mullard 520 circuit/ users are Marantz, McIntosh, Eico, Citation, and others
2- Williamson circuit/ users are Heathkit, Dynaco and others
3- Cathodyne circuit/ users are Dyna and others
4- Hegeman circuit/ users are Citation, Lafayette, RCA and others
Click to expand...

Add one more common topology- the Paraphase circuit, as used by Magnavox, Scott, RCA and others...

And one not-so-common topology- the screen-drive Williamson... as used by Berning and a few others. Significantly different enough in design goals, to warrant its own category, IMHO.

As mentioned, there's all sorts of other topologies- the RCA-design OTL circuit, as used in Futterman, NYAL and other OTL designs... various single-ended topologies... and many others. But, for commercially available, affordable, reasonably-high-power (10 watts or more), these five amp designs do cover the vast majority of what's out there...

Which one is better? Well, in vintage amps, the most consistently good circuit, IME, has been the Mullard circuit... the Marantz 8/8B and the Eico HF22 are two very good examples. Not much significantly better than those.

OTOH, the highest-performance vintage amp of all time, IMHO, is the Citation II, with the Hegeman circuit...

As for modern designs, the Williamson circuit (with variations, usually involving intermediate feedback stages within the amp) seems to be the most common. Many new amps give GREAT results with variations of this. With modern transformer, feedback circuit and front-end circuit optimization techniques that were not available back in the old days, this circuit has continued to serve well...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
GordonW said:
Add one more common topology- the Paraphase circuit, as used by Magnavox, Scott, RCA and others...

And one not-so-common topology- the screen-drive Williamson... as used by Berning and a few others. Significantly different enough in design goals, to warrant its own category, IMHO.

As mentioned, there's all sorts of other topologies- the RCA-design OTL circuit, as used in Futterman, NYAL and other OTL designs... various single-ended topologies... and many others. But, for commercially available, affordable, reasonably-high-power (10 watts or more), these five amp designs do cover the vast majority of what's out there...

Which one is better? Well, in vintage amps, the most consistently good circuit, IME, has been the Mullard circuit... the Marantz 8/8B and the Eico HF22 are two very good examples. Not much significantly better than those.

OTOH, the highest-performance vintage amp of all time, IMHO, is the Citation II, with the Hegeman circuit...

As for modern designs, the Williamson circuit (with variations, usually involving intermediate feedback stages within the amp) seems to be the most common. Many new amps give GREAT results with variations of this. With modern transformer, feedback circuit and front-end circuit optimization techniques that were not available back in the old days, this circuit has continued to serve well...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Thanks Gordon,

That was pretty informative.
 
sonix said:
Hello all tube admireres,
I would like to know your opinions on what you think the best tube amp design is...
Click to expand...
That's a big can-o-worms you've opened up there... LOL
IMO the best tube audio design is ANY that you ENJOY! :D
There are excellent sounding examples of almost every one of the numerous circuit topologies, tube combinations/permutations previously mentioned.Plus there's a LOT of personal preferences that play into what sounds "good" to any group of like-minded individuals. However I've found synergy with your front end, musical media, and speakers is most critical to one's satisfaction with play-back. But it sounds like you have found a pretty good combination "for you" with your Sansui gear.

I do know that 1000A is quite the beast! (I declined to recap one for an aquaintance a few years back as one look under the hood told me it would be quite time-consuming and at the time I couldnt find a schematic )
sonix said:
My speakers are Sansui Sp 3200 and Sp 2700. They sound really good with my Sansui 1000A. Speakers have horn tweeters and horn ambience speaker, probably around 100db efficiency.:thmbsp:
Click to expand...
My Sansui data (circa 1977) shows the 4-way SP-3200A speakers were rated for 110wpc at 8ohms and 89db @1watt-meter sensitivity.

Good luck on your quest
WopOnTour
 
McIntosh uses the Patented, Unity Coupled circuit design. This is not bassed on Mullard or anything else.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Triode, capacitor coupled to a cathode follower. Then cap coupled to your output tube. And a bit of feedback :) Worked nice for me. When I turned a PA system into a desc. amp.

But if I could pick anything.
And I don't know how possible this is. But I would make a directly coupled push-pull all the way. To an output stage ran in pure class B for most power output. From the least power.

I'm no expert though. I just like to think that I know how to build these :P
Rudy
 
Thanks for your input everyone. I think I should of asked my question in a diffent way. Like what set ups to you guys use and what seems to work best for diifferent music types. Classical, Jazz, Rock, Insturmental, Blues, Vaocals.

Cheers!
 
There are way too many variables from the inside all the way to peripherals to claim a "Best" in this regard. Then again, if you've ever been fortunate enough to hear an AN Ongaku or most anything else from AN, you'll probably know it's something special. Hear one with the usual, high-end peripherals and you might just feel like giving up on all of the rest, getting yourself sold on SET as the ultimate. Then again, they're pretty well known for making most any topology sound like the best. The golden era McIntosh amps can be something to behold when they're driving relatively efficient spkrs, too.

Most of the topologies mentioned so far, along with McIntosh, etc:

1- Mullard 520 circuit/ users are Marantz, McIntosh, Eico, Citation, and others
2- Williamson circuit/ users are Heathkit, Dynaco and others
3- Cathodyne circuit/ users are Dyna and others
4- Hegeman circuit/ users are Citation, Lafayette, RCA and others


There are other topologies than those mentioned above so far, as another contributor already pointed out. Several of those above are actually very similar in both design and function. Others that weren't specifically mentioned that come to my mind as worthy of inclusion due to the extreme variances from those above are ones that use transformer coupling; this was used in very early designs, some later versions and IIRC, more recently in some Audio Note amps.

There is the rather unique application done by Audio Research also. They used a null-gain input paraphase-type inverter followed by a cross-coupled cathode follower array for drivers to the partially cathode coupled outputs. This rather legendary design yielded astoundingly low distortion specs that basically stood up to all the early SS, mostly crappy sounding-yet looks good on paper-specs and rivalled most anything else ever built using tubes, at least at that time. This design, interestingly enough, landed the "4 Ohms" secondary tap at ground potential, yet the "0" tap was in fact at the end of the secondary OPT swinging 'below' ground. The amp came with the strong advisory to avoid commond-ground spkr switches and headphone connections at all costs for obvious reasons.
 
Yep there is no best anything, whether it be audio related or anything else.

What some feel is the best or better others may not like at all, most tube people
can't even agree on the type of tube, let alone single ended an push pull then all
the different ways to build them.

So yah this thread is pointless really, IMHO (to try an hash out the best anything)
 
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