My turntable adventure begins - thorens TD-160 advice for mounting tone arm?

So, I've been meaning to get into vinyl for a while now, slowly getting everything together for a nice setup figuring eventually, I might have something worth spinning up...

So a few years ago a friend of mine calls me up, telling me he is clearing out his garage, and he knows I want a TT, so come get this TD-160 (for free) or its going in the trash (!!!)

so obviously i head over and here it is:





ok so motor works, belt is good etc... now i just need to wait for a tone arm to fall out of the sky...

ok so now a few months ago me and a friend of mine go meet up with a guy locally selling off a bunch of equipment from a defunct audio store...

and what do you suppose is there? a tone arm! and not just any tone arm... an eminent technology air bearing linear tone arm! so i traded a few audio things i had laying around that said friend wanted (which i also got for free initally lol) and now i have a tone arm... only problem is, the joint was completely exploded... ex.



and the weight was broken off



thankfully the weight is easy to repair, the joint, not so much... but amazingly enough ET still had spare parts, and the result...



yay! a functional air-bearing tone arm!

unfortunately the stylus also had a bad day...





and the goal is to have something functional that looks like this:



so i come to you guys (and gals) knowing much more than i, asking for any advice for mounting this thing? lol

i was thinking of getting a small piece of aluminum to cover the right side of the table, covering up the large hold where the original arm was... to around where the black part begins... and mount the arm to that...

i also need to get some weights or something to pull down the side of the table where the arm was, either that or adjust the springs so the platter is level again...

help? :scratch2:

Wow you have an air bearing tonearm there from the looks of it!
That could be an Eminent Technologies air bearing linear tracking tonearm.
Did the arm come with an air pump?
I do not know how to mount it on a Thorens,and do not know much about the arm.
I am sure the experts will be along shortly to help you out.

auralfixaton said:

Wow you have an air bearing tonearm there from the looks of it!
That could be an Eminent Technologies air bearing linear tracking tonearm.
Did the arm come with an air pump?
I do not know how to mount it on a Thorens,and do not know much about the arm.
I am sure the experts will be along shortly to help you out.

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yep im fairly certain it is an ET2 air bearing tonearm... it came with a broken joint but they sent me a replacement for $40 and $10 for the air filter

im trying to contact the guy that had all this stuff becuase i believe i saw what i think was the pump when i was there... not sure though... from reading the manual on ET's website it seems you can use a pair of aquarium pumps out of phase going into a storage thank for a decent air source...

Some limited specifications I found on http://www.cartridgedb.com/
The most crucial one seem to be the mounting distance from the spindle on the turntable : Mount Distance 187.33 mm
You will have to make a tonearm mounting plate that has a center point that distance from the spindle center,far as I know a linear tracker is meant to be parallel to the center of the spindle/bearing.
Another issue could be the weight of that arm,it is a heavy assembly and may affect the suspension of a TD-160.
Owners manuals seem to be here http://www.eminent-tech.com/tonearm.html

auralfixaton said:

Some limited specifications I found on http://www.cartridgedb.com/
The most crucial one seem to be the mounting distance from the spindle on the turntable : Mount Distance 187.33 mm
You will have to make a tonearm mounting plate that has a center point that distance from the spindle center,far as I know a linear tracker is meant to be parallel to the center of the spindle/bearing.
Another issue could be the weight of that arm,it is a heavy assembly and may affect the suspension of a TD-160.
Owners manuals seem to be here http://www.eminent-tech.com/tonearm.html

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im not sure it would really be really possible to attach the arm to the suspension of the table... is this critical?

i was reading the manual again and it refers to an installation/measuring jig... wonder if they still have any of those kicking around? might have to shoot them another email :scratch2:

im trying to avoid spending any more dollars since i dont have any lol :tears:

WAY too much hassle to mount that arm on that table, get it leveled and adjusted, source a proper vacuum, etc... A much easier solution would be just to pack it up and send it to me. I'll send you a Luxman pivotal tonearm that could be easily mounted in that Thorens hole, in return. And that's not all! I'll even include the flimsy plastic base for it, and the tonearm wires pre-installed, at no additional charge! But wait! There's more... I'll even pay for shipping!

Seriously, you have the makings of a VERY nice vinyl set-up there. You may need to make an entirely new base to mount that arm on, as you described, and you definitely need to source an appropriate air-pump system. You can DIY that, but remember that pumps make noise. You'll want to run long hoses and put the assembly in another room, inside of sound-dampening box (or in a closet, etc... Put filters on the thing, and ideally some water-absorbent chemicals in the chamber, so you won't get condensation in the gear, potentially leading to corrosion.

You might even consider re-mounting the whole thing on a larger customized plinth/base, but that isn't necessary to get good sound.

Good luck with the rest of the construction work. Your patience over such a long time to acquire and assemble these parts is admirable, and will be well-rewarded in the end! :yes:

Arkay said:

WAY too much hassle to mount that arm on that table, get it leveled and adjusted, source a proper vacuum, etc... A much easier solution would be just to pack it up and send it to me. I'll send you a Luxman pivotal tonearm that could be easily mounted in that Thorens hole, in return. And that's not all! I'll even include the flimsy plastic base for it, and the tonearm wires pre-installed, at no additional charge! But wait! There's more... I'll even pay for shipping!

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LOL i will get to gether with the guy that found all the marantz stuff so we can combine shipping :drool:

Arkay said:

Seriously, you have the makings of a VERY nice vinyl set-up there. You may need to make an entirely new base to mount that arm on, as you described, and you definitely need to source an appropriate air-pump system. You can DIY that, but remember that pumps make noise. You'll want to run long hoses and put the assembly in another room, inside of sound-dampening box (or in a closet, etc... Put filters on the thing, and ideally some water-absorbent chemicals in the chamber, so you won't get condensation in the gear, potentially leading to corrosion.

You might even consider re-mounting the whole thing on a larger customized plinth/base, but that isn't necessary to get good sound.

Good luck with the rest of the construction work. Your patience over such a long time to acquire and assemble these parts is admirable, and will be well-rewarded in the end! :yes:

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i was thinking of the whole larger plinth/base thing looking at some of the stuff other members have done here, but im not sure im there yet... i sent an email to ET asking about the availability of the installation jig, hopefully that will make installing it significantly easier :scratch2:

and i still need to get a new cartridge... been looking at a DL160 or an MP11... sucks the benz was trashed :cry:

Actually, I think Arkay has a good point, even if he is joshing. Putting an air bearing arm on a suspended subchasis table is difficult to do -- if the suspension is even out with the arm at rest, it won't be anywhere else in its transit. And even though the 160 is a good table, its not so earth shatteringly excellent that its worth all that torture. You can fit a Mayware Formula IV onto the Thorens subchasis easily, so I would guess a Rega would fit also, since I was able to plop a Rega into an old Mayware armboard on a Kenwood KD 500. Helped that the Mayware hole was bigger, so there was a bit of slop.
But my point is not that one arm or another is the best choice (heck -- Arkays might be an excellent choice), but that you may have two good items that won't make a good match. But part of the charm of doing it yourself is ignoring well intentioned advice that doesn't match what you want to do, so go ahead with whatever you yearn to do, and keep us posted on what you do.

looks like an interesting project, albeit somewhat unconventional.

what I would do is determine the correct mounting position and height for the arm, and work from there.

I have some knowledge of that series of TT, as I have one that is heavily modified from the original design.

first off, I would try to mount it to the suspended sub chassis, in order to keep the suspended sub chassis design of the table intact.
when properly setup and placed I believe it to be a very good design, and is the key reason IMHO that these tables are good.

If the arm needs to be positioned roughly where you are holding it, perhaps if you were to build an armboard out of aluminum, which has a rectangular plug that fits into the hole to attach to the sub chassis.
raised off the top of the table by about 5mm, that is if the correct mounting height will allow it.

if you were to mount it on the sub chassis using an armboard such as the one I suggest, the weight of it will twist the suspension, so that the front of the table will ride lower than the back, so tweaking the springs will be difficult, but not impossible.
perhaps some additional weight added to the rear part of the sub chassis can balance it.
another counterbalance would be to weight the opposite end of the mounting board, behind the rectangle where it mounts to the sub chassis.
but that additional weight will make tuning the suspension a pain.

it will be a trial and error process of determining the correct combination of weighting, and tuning of the suspension to get the table to sit level with that arm on it just sitting stationary.

as mentioned, as the arm moves towards the inner grooves, the weight will shift, which will upset the balance of the suspension basically like side to side rocking of a boat, making your platter not ride level, making the sub chassis twist to the rear, raising the front of the platter as the arm moves back.
this could lead to groove distortion, or imbalanced sound between the outer and inner grooves as the weight shifts.

it looks like a very challenging project, and potentially expensive to get fully realized, if its even possible to get fully functional.

I foresee some tougher springs, and some custom machined parts in your future, if you go ahead with this project.


could be fun, could be a royal pain that wouldn't amount to anything all that special. many engineering hurdles to overcome.


If I was experimenting with this, I would pick up a couple of cheap aquarium pumps, mock up a rough armboard, and try it, without investing to much.
just to get a feel for the physics of it.

treserious said:

If I was experimenting with this, I would pick up a couple of cheap aquarium pumps, mock up a rough armboard, and try it, without investing to much.
just to get a feel for the physics of it.

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ya the logistics of mounting to the lower suspended deck are going to be interesting, im not planning on investing much becuase i cant... everything for this project has cost me $0 so far lol

if mounting to the suspended platform is a must, im thinking a top platform on standoffs going through holes in the normal top to the bottom suspended platform... the shifting weight could be an issue... maybe it could be overcome by stiffer springs?

i'm part the "wait-for-the-good-deal-fi" team lol

the issue with stand offs, is that the suspended sub chassis does not take up the whole interior.
taken from theanalogdept.com


stiffer springs will help some, but not cure all.

And stiffer springs will give less isolation, and a different and worse (since Thorens chose it for good reasons) resonance for the suspension. And you still won't solve the changing center of mass that is the result of the arm moving. It will make the suspension tilt, which will then make the arm move because of gravity, not because its following the groove.
I don't know how important these issues would be in practice, but a solid plinth turntable seems a much easier and better match for the Eminent Technology.

Nat said:

And stiffer springs will give less isolation, and a different and worse (since Thorens chose it for good reasons) resonance for the suspension. And you still won't solve the changing center of mass that is the result of the arm moving. It will make the suspension tilt, which will then make the arm move because of gravity, not because its following the groove.
I don't know how important these issues would be in practice, but a solid plinth turntable seems a much easier and better match for the Eminent Technology.

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ya but where am i going to get one of those for free or near free? lol :tears:

what about just mounting the arm to the table (not the suspended part?) thats kind of what i was planning on doing originally...

flecom said:

ya but where am i going to get one of those for free or near free? lol :tears:

what about just mounting the arm to the table (not the suspended part?) thats kind of what i was planning on doing originally...

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then any bouncing the suspension does risks bouncing the arm around, and potentially damaging the stylus/cantilever.
the tonearm on any suspended sub chassis table, is mounted to the suspended part, be it thorens, AR, etc.
mounting it any other way defeats the purpose of having the suspension.

and believe me, it likes to bounce, even a little bit when wall mounted.



the more I think on it, the less hope I have for this coupling. the physics just aren't on your side in this, and you have to obey physics, its the law

perhaps selling that arm, or trading it?
it is a nice arm, but not suited to a suspended table.

Its not hard to find direct drives or idler drives that might be good candidates for the ET arm. Obviously you'd want a really super one for your final table, but a garden variety one might be just fine as a practice table. The thing about direct drives is that the motor and electronics are pretty easily removed from whatever plastic (usually) box they are in and transferred to something more substantial, which would be a good basis for the ET.

Nat said:

Its not hard to find direct drives or idler drives that might be good candidates for the ET arm. Obviously you'd want a really super one for your final table, but a garden variety one might be just fine as a practice table. The thing about direct drives is that the motor and electronics are pretty easily removed from whatever plastic (usually) box they are in and transferred to something more substantial, which would be a good basis for the ET.

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I would love to try something like that arm on my SP10 plinth build.

Nat said:

Its not hard to find direct drives or idler drives that might be good candidates for the ET arm. Obviously you'd want a really super one for your final table, but a garden variety one might be just fine as a practice table. The thing about direct drives is that the motor and electronics are pretty easily removed from whatever plastic (usually) box they are in and transferred to something more substantial, which would be a good basis for the ET.

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i think im going to try and go this route... now to find a cheap dd tt :worried:

If you were closer, I'd be happy to give you several. People toss their turntables with appalling frequency, and usually the dustcover and the tonearm are the primary victims. I've got several candidates.

Just found this thread so I didn't post earlier. I'm not sure the issue of the moving tonearm is a big an issue as all have posted. I'm thinking you should give it a try.

Here is my reasoning. The most of the mass of the tonearm looks to be concentrated in the center base, the tangential arm that slides through the center base and the cartridge arm that projects out over the record. Both of those arms move toward the back of the turntable with the tangential one moving on out the other side of the center base. This acts as a shifting counter weight. It is true that the center of gravity will shift the subplatter on the suspension forward and back. What is will NOT do change the geometry between the arm and the platter because both the arm and the platter are, or will be mounted on the same platform, the subchassis. What will happen is the entire subchassis will shift with the movement of the arm. This is the key. How much will it shift. If the answer is too much, then it is not suited to the turntable. You do have suspension springs on the bottom of the turntable. the length and strength were selected for the mass of the subchassis, tonearm and platter that Thorens mounted on the turntable originally. nothing says that you need to keep them that way. since you have the two already, I would go ahead and try mounting the arm on the turntable and experimenting with tightening up on the mounting springs to level the platter. I'm thinking the shift in angle you will experience will be small enough to not affect the playing of records much. Contrary to what some will believe, being off perfectly horizontal by half a degree or so either way will not really effect playback any. The tangential forces exerted on a tonearm do to being off that small an amount are small enough to be lost in the dynamic nature of the forces between stylus and record grove and prove inconsequential to record playback or record live or stylus life.

I think if you went ahead with this, then placed the result on a wall shelf firmly mounted to the 2x4 studs behind the wall you will have an awesome turntable.

Good Luck

Shelly_D

(By the way. I have had training as an engineer and spent 27 years working as one for the telephone company. I'm not an expert on this, but some of my old training does apply. Just something to take into consideration BEFORE taking my advice. I think it's good advice, but others sometimes disagree and sometimes they are right as well.)

Once again good luck with whatever you do.

Shelly_D

The two suspended TTs recommended for the ET were the VPI HW-19 and SOTA Star due to massive suspended sub-structures that tolerate the ET's mass and shifting. The ET has been used on less substantial suspended TTs with varying success tho' a non-suspended DD would be a more stable alternative to the lighter-weight suspended options. The ET+ VPI/SOTA were considered very reasonably priced 'ultimate' TTs back in the glory days of pre-CD vinyl.