Do crossover components need "burn-in" time?

badbadbad

Well-Known Member
Ive read about wiring, and I did use all new wiring both inside and to my speakers, and each day they seem to sound better. I also have new caps and coils, did they also suffer from being new?

The drivers are all well used, but today the speakers seem to be almost "magical" The bass is much better, the imaging seems to improve everyday.

I have about 25 hours of "run time" on them right now.
 
The answer you get will typically depend on whether the responder is a subjectivist or an objectivist.

Objectivist, engineer types, will say that technically, nothing really 'breaks in', but instead your brain adjusts slowly over time to accomodate any subtle changes in your listening experience.
The area of science this falls under is called psychoacoustic masking. Wikipedia has a good write up on it with excellent links and references.

OTOH, subjectivists will swear they hear a difference over time.
Also see http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78978 for prior debate on the subject of recapping and when.

Let the flame wars begin!
 
Burn in time is just for the manufacture to make you listen to it long enough to adjust to it and think you like it, rather than returning it on the first day.
IMO.
 
I am an objectivist with a broadened humanist perspective - pretend they do, if you like.

[Ken Kantor did it.... ;) ]
 
I am in the middle of crossover capacitor testing (several brands, values etc.) I would call myself decidedly neutral, although leaning toward the objectivist camp. I am very aware of the potential abuse of pseudo phenomenon for marketing purposes.

Having said that, without a shadow of doubt to these ears, I heard a distinct change in sound within the first 40 hours of listening to new MPP caps from Mundorf (the cheaper white M-caps) after replacing original 40 year old caps.

When I first installed them, they were very closed in, almost muted, with a decided scoop in the mids. A day and a half later, they had opened up considerably with ample mid range. I do not pretend to yet understand the mechanism behind this phenomenon, but it was so obvious I had to instantly rule out psychoacoustic masking. I am relatively new to mid/high end audio, but I have decades of keen listening experience as a musician. I have also been very careful all along about protecting my ears with hearing protection.

A friend suggested that I might have been hearing increased driver compliance from running the speakers continually for a long time. This was a reasonable possibility, but since replacing the caps, I have let the speakers rest for as much as a week, and gone back to hear the same open sound that was painfully absent those first few hours.

The phenomenon can be better tested, and I do plan to corroborate my experience with even better methods. One need only secure two matched sets of crossover capacitors, let one set burn in for sufficient time, and then switch with the brand new ones. I have already modified my crossovers so that I can switch caps quickly without solder for repeatable quick change tests.

It seems possible if not likely that crossover capacitor break in is a continuum, meaning that a range of results are possible, from no break in with certain caps and certain gear, through to more obvious changes for yet other capacitors and gear.
 
Having said that, without a shadow of doubt to these ears, I heard a distinct change in sound within the first 40 hours of listening to new MPP caps from Mundorf (the cheaper white M-caps) after replacing original 40 year old caps.

I'd concur with this, although for me it usually takes 20 to 60 minutes only for caps to really burn in. There may be changes after this, but I can't really hear them.
Certainly though, new caps seem to make good speakers sound a bit dull and 'squashed' for the first half hour, then they come to life.
 
I am an objectivist with a broadened humanist perspective - pretend they do, if you like.

[Ken Kantor did it.... ;) ]


Thanks.... I think.....

Next step, start listening to Helter Skelter over and over and over again, as loud as you can take it....

-k


BTW- No, caps don't break in, at least after the first 100 or 200 milliseconds. There are so many people who shout about how, "obvious and unsubtle!" break in is, that this term itself has become kind of an inside joke in certain internet audio circles over the past twenty years.

No, capacitor breakin isn't "obvious and unsubtle." It is "obvious and imaginary."

I don't know why I even bother to say this, since the reaction will be comically predictable: attacks on my hearing, my biases, my equipment, testimonials from outraged users telling me how even their wives can hear the difference, condescending netgurus and boutique company reps citing bizarre pseudo-science about things they don't understand like "dielectric absorption" and "electrolytic domain formation." Yawn. Having used and measured caps for a living for decades: they don't need any break-in.
 
The same guy that won't put any music on until his amp has warmed up for a half hour prior to listening will tell you yes, they do have to break in for a month or two before they are worth listening to.
 
If the value (capacitance) remains the same all the time, there is nothing to burn in. If it drifts over time by more than 2-3% you might be able to hear something. :para:
 
I've noticed it with some brands more than others. IMO, most of it occurs within the first 10 hours or so, anything after that will be subtle. YMMV.
 
Thanks.... I think.....


BTW- No, caps don't break in, at least after the first 100 or 200 milliseconds. There are so many people who shout about how, "obvious and unsubtle!" break in is, that this term itself has become kind of an inside joke in certain internet audio circles over the past twenty years.

No, capacitor breakin isn't "obvious and unsubtle." It is "obvious and imaginary."

Yawn. Having used and measured caps for a living for decades: they don't need any break-in.

There are a few certainties. One is that your blanket assertion that the phenomenon of audible change over short time periods cannot possibly exist in any configuration of capacitor type and equipment is as unproven as any claim that the phenomenon unequivocally exists, unless you can publish here laboratory grade spectrograms that have been used to measure audible differences after break in of all capacitor types and on a vast array of gear. Without this, why your conjecture is no better than mine.

The inside joke on all of us is that all curiously questionable phenomenon gets lumped into real nonsense like $5000 interconnects or $250 per foot speaker cable. As often stated, I am new to audio, but not new to science, or the art of discernment. In the experience I reported, the observed event of a change in sound was not remotely imagined. Could it at times be subtle enough or even negligible? Sure, why not. Could it be that marketers seriously abuse the possibility? Of course.

The truth is, each of hears differently too. Why for all I know, you might be stone cold deaf, and this would go far in explaining why you might not hear any difference. I'll tell you what, I will publish my most recent hearing test here, and you can do the same, and then at least we will have a better foundation on which to base opinion.:)
 
Last edited:
I think most people are mistaking "break-in", for the period of time where the ears are adjusting to the sound of the speakers.

My current speakers sound better to me today than they did the first day I listened to them. But my brain has simply dismissed some of what I considered "wrong" with the speakers when I first heard them.

I do think that a woofer with a surround or other moving parts can sound different over time, as the suspension loosens up. I mean the speaker is still vibrating the same amount of times at 60hz as it was on day 1.

And as someone mentioned above, capacitor values will change over time. At least the cheaper capacitors will. The better capacitors with tighter tolerences shouldn't ever change much at all?

In the end, your ears adjusting to the sound of the speaker is IMO 90% of what accounts for the change in sound.
 
... real nonsense like $5000 interconnects or $250 per foot speaker cable....
I dunno, but that seems rather unequivocal to me. You have spectrograms to establish this, right?

I read once that audiograms performed on attendees of a conference of the Audio Engineering Society revealed that members had somewhat lower hearing acuity than the public at large. This might explain quite a bit, actually.

[Ken can tell us whether this is urban legend or not, unequivocally.... ;) ]
 
Last edited:
I am a bit embarrassed to admit this, because it can easily be viewed as some kind of leverage, but just for the curiosity, I have attended one of the larger hospital audiology departments in a major city on two occasions in the past for complaint of tinnitus. The chief doctor has told me on each visit that I have the most acute hearing he has ever seen, in anyone of any age let alone someone in thier forties. I attribute this in part to being extremely careful with exposure to loud sounds over the years. In fact, I wear custom fitted musician's ear plugs (12dB down) even while driving.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom