VPI HW-19 Jr Opinions?

Anyone have any direct experience with this table? The one I'm contemplating has an RB250 mounted. From what I gather it's a good table in stock form but one that is also very upgradeable.
I'd love to hear AK'ers opinions about this table, the good bad and/or ugly.

I have an HW-19 Mk. III and it's a fine table. It is built so very well that it just oozes confidence when you use it. The Rega is a well liked arm as well. The HW-19 is a no muss no fuss kind of table that is upgradable down the road should you want to.

Here is a thread I did on some DIY mods for the HW-19 if you're the type to enjoy that kind of thing.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=252428

VPI is a great company with a large following of happy customers. I don't think you'll be dissapointed.

The HW-19 Jr is the most basic version of the venerable HW-19 line which included at least 5 models (Jr. Mk I through Mk IV), all of them very good, well built, very reliable 'tables. There are numerous upgrade options, all of which can easily be done by the owner. One of the nice things about this 'table is that it was in production for a long time, so there has been a steady supply of parts and pieces on the used market.

My HW-19 was a Jr model in stock form for a good 9 years. A simple Table, all that is electrical on the Table, or any other HW-19 Table, is the Hurst AC Synchonous Motor, a Start Capacitor, and an On/Off Switch, that's it.

There are some parts available from VPI, but some, are no longer made. Such as the Lead Filled Mk-III, and MK-IV Platters, which IMO, is the largest , and most notable sonic upgrade you can make to this Table. The clear frosted Acrylic Platters, no matter how thick, do not stack up to these older Platters.

Still, they may offer some sonic improvements versus the stock 6lb Jr Platter.

A full one piece acrylic Plinth, with steel subchassis is currently available from VPI for $300, and I understand they will drill the Plinth for an Arm for free, if you know the specs, and if they have the required templates in shop.

Any of the screw down clamps VPI makes, works with this Table, the rubber feet can be changed to others, and that provides a good improvement in sound as well. The jr model came with sorbothane feet, and of all the suspension varieties for this table, the sorbo pucks were one of the best, if not the very best way to go. If the Plinth was 1.00" thick Sheet Aluminum, the sorbo pucks will handle the weight.
Or, if you by chance had the opportunity to plop on the 25lb Super Platter, no prob (again a option VPI sadly no longer makes, the Super Platter upgrade)

The RB-250 is a good Arm, but does take well to modding as many have found, and there are of course other options, like moving up the Rega line, so one can stay with the same plinth, and S-P distance. There are 3rd party companies, such as Origin Live, who sell modified versions of the Rega Arm, so this is as well, an area for upgrade potential.

One can of course go even further, by using the VPI SAMA, or isolating the Plinth from base, via some sort of stands, commonly known as the "Tomato Can SAMA". The VPI SDS as well can be used with the Jr Model, just like all other VPI Tables, as they all utilize the AC Synchonous Motor.

All in all, a bulletproof Table, that takes well to very simple tweakage, and will always be seen as a giant killer, and a Table that for the money, had little equal. Typically, when new, the HW-19 Jr, sold as a package with either the Rega RB-250, or AQ PT Arm, was generally about a $900-$950 Table. Mark

Thanks for the input guys.
I'm now thinking maybe a clean used Scout isn't too much more of a stretch. I think I'd likely be happier with it stock without the need to do the upgrade thing...

Although I never did the comparo, I would think the HW-19 Jr would closely match the Scout in performance, and quality of sonics, all other things being equal. Some would of course argue that, perhaps even Harry W. himself, and they may have valid points/reasons as to why.

Take the Inverted Bearing design for one. Is it better, than the older style conventional Bearing? That may depend on the implementation, and the quality of the Bearing itself. My Jr had a 1/2" dia bearing Shaft, and for a 6lb Acrylic Platter, it was substantial enough, considering the same diameter Bearing Shaft was used with the 16lb Mk-IV Platter I have now.

Bearing rock was always a consideration with a Belt Drive design. The stated claim with an Inverted bearing, was that the Bearing's thrust, and contact areas was placed better at the Platter's center of gravity, thus, or should I say "supposedly" lessening Bearing rock.

I wouldnt necessarily say that the Inverted Bearing design was inheritly better, just a different design. Many high end Tables still utilize a conventional Bearing design, such as Galibier Turntables as an example.

Again, I'll make an assumption-hunch, again, all things being equal, that the HW-19 MK-III, or MK-VI will have the performance advantage, versus a bone stock VPI Scout.

When I say all things being equal, I mean both Tables having the exact same Arm, and Cartridge on board. Those differences noted however may be also influenced by personal tastes.

I was never much impressed with the VPI Scout, as I see it, all this Table essentially was, was a stripped down HW-19, with no Wood base, just a Slab of spray painted MDF, with Feet stuck on the Bottom, and the rest attached to the top.

As far as beauty, many would say the HW-19 wouldn't win any beauty awards, but IMO the HW-19 is a prettier table than the Scout.

I'm sure you've seen the new VPI Classic, and if one wishes a table that appears to need very little in the way of tweakage, this looks to be it. Seriously, if I was in the market for a nice turntable, without the need to have to donate an organ to have it, i'd seriously consider the Classic.

I'm just about totally convinced as well, that Harry at VPI did hit a magic combination, of performance/cost, that the Classic will be hard to beat at this price range, both for build quality, and sonics. Mark

All good points Mark. I too think the HW-19 is a better looking table and equal in sound quality to the scout. I had a chance to preview the Scout at a local dealer and it was a fine table, but I couldn't say it was better than my HW-19 Mk. III at home. It's not a perfect comparison because everything was different, room, tonearm, cartridge ect. but I couldn't help feeling that it wasn't any better. I have read many other post from others toting the MK-III or IV platters as being better than the Scout.

markd51 said:

I'm just about totally convinced as well, that Harry at VPI did hit a magic combination, of performance/cost, that the Classic will be hard to beat at this price range, both for build quality, and sonics. Mark

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I'm curious if you've had a chance to personaly observe the sonics of The Classic yourself. I'd love to read about your experience with it and what you thought.

I recently got a Jr. and after looking how it is put together, I'm not impressed at all. I knocked the belt off the platter several times just putting LP's on , so I'm likely going to find another TT before it's all over with. Doesn't seem to be any isolation of the motor to the chassis and the spring/suspension setup is really cheap.

I play trumpet and the speed of the TT is off from every other table I've owned and I'm not going to spend money of a fancy speed control unit. The more exotic TT's I buy, the more I want to go back to a Technics SL1200.
As Shania says " That don't impress me much "

hobie1dog said:

I recently got a Jr. and after looking how it is put together, I'm not impressed at all. I knocked the belt off the platter several times just putting LP's on , so I'm likely going to find another TT before it's all over with. Doesn't seem to be any isolation of the motor to the chassis and the spring/suspension setup is really cheap.

I play trumpet and the speed of the TT is off from every other table I've owned and I'm not going to spend money of a fancy speed control unit. The more exotic TT's I buy, the more I want to go back to a Technics SL1200.
As Shania says " That don't impress me much "

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Yes, the Jr is basically a simple Table, no denying that. Not sure how to continue to knock the Belt off putting on/taking off LP's? I'm assuming it is when you are screwing down the Clamp that this happens, and you need to retain the Platter from rotation when doing so?

I've never had this happen. Keep in mind that the trick with all Platter Clamping Systems, is to only clamp the record "just right", in other words, too much clamping pressure will actually begin to dish the record away from the Platter surface again.

Yes, you are correct, every VPI Table ever made, and one that isn't using a speed controller will have slight speed errors due to the slight variances in Pulley-Platter Diameter. Other factors can be Belt condition, and lastly, AC Line Frequency. This is the bane of Belt Drives.

Line Frequency is usually pretty stable, and it is Line Frequency in Hertz, rather than a variance in Voltage that effects the speed on these AC Syncronous Motors.

It cannot be helped, but as you note, can be corrected with a speed controller, either the older VPI PLC, or the newer VPI SDS.

Belt condition will effect speed accuracy to a degree, and as well, speed stability. Figure a new Belt every year, or so.

The Plinth suspension system is relatively cheap yes, but effective. On the Jr Model, they should be the Black Sorbothane Pucks.

You are correct, that you would most likely be better served with a good direct Drive Table, such as the Technics SL-1200 Series. Mark

Hello Muthafunk,
No, I have yet to see, or hear the VPI Classic in person. I can basically envision what the Table is, basically how it was constructed. Of course a million pics won't give any indications of its sound, and that can vary, as we all know, due to what Cartridge is on board, what Phono Stage, etc, etc.

Otherwise, for the money, to me, it appears that one is getting more Table for thier money, and that there was actually more man hours-labor invested into the Classic, versus the Scout. That, as well as a better VPI Tonearm.

I assume with the Investment Cast Aluminum Platter, that the Platter has a hollowed area, and that this area was filled with another, dissimilar material. Thought I read mention of some sort of Resin?

Back in the day, before Harry had begun manufacture of his own Tonearms, one would commonly buy the HW-19 Series with either an AQ Arm, a Rega Arm, or perhaps Sumiko MMT Arm. I seem to recall some HW-19 Tables even having on board the Eminent Technology Linear Tracking Arm.

Now here's a question I have, and wonder about, with a Table such as the new Classic?
Can the Classic be ordered without Tonearm? I'm kind of thinking at this point, no, that Harry wishes to sell the entire "package", that with his Table purchase, you have to take his Tonearm as well.

The possibility of being able to buy the Classic, minus Tonearm could be interesting. It could open up more options, for those who perhaps already have a Tonearm on hand, or perhaps for whatever personal reasons, prefer a different Tonearm other than the JMW Arm?

This would for one, no doubt lower the price of the Classic, minus the Tonearm, and I'm sure Harry could provide the service for a choice of mounting-drilling of other Arms, such as Graham, SME, TriPlanar, Moerch, Jelco, Shroder, Rega, etc, without too much trouble. Hypothetically, let's say I have a pristine Graham 2.2 Arm on hand. sure would be nice if one could then use such an Arm, on such a Table if one wished to.

Harry of course has to weigh those possible options, and it could possibly be a win-win situation, for both company, and end user? Mark

Yes, the Jr is a "simple" "basic" table....but it is an EXCELLENT WELL-BUILT TABLE.

One can hardly find fault with its operation and performance. The Rega 250 arm is a good match for it. Mine has the AudioQuest PT-6, also excellent.

But the best thing is that VPI tables, even the "simple" Jr can be upgraded without much fuss.

I have major VPI lust right now.

markd51 said:

The Plinth suspension system is relatively cheap yes, but effective. On the Jr Model, they should be the Black Sorbothane Pucks.

You are correct, that you would most likely be better served with a good direct Drive Table, such as the Technics SL-1200 Series. Mark

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Mark, I looked and noticed that mine has been modified.... I assume , as it has some regular coil springs installed. I hate it when a perfectly good design has been "tweaked". Just like my last TT ( an Oracle Delphi ) that had an aftermarket ceramic bearing assembly installed...bastard had a noise in it every rotation...it was meant to be run completely dry...really shitty design, and I had similar speed issues so I sold the thing on Ebay. I had wanted one of those for 15 years or so, and ended up finding out it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.....leaning towards that brand new- stock- Technics SL 1200 Sounds like I'm talking myself into it pretty rapidly...I'm just getting old, and tired of screwing with this high-end-tweaking/never ending hassle with exotic and overpriced equipment.

So what are used HW-19jr's selling for these days?

marqueemoon said:

I have major VPI lust right now.

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I had it about a month ago and I'm horrible at saying no to myself. Go for it.

Around here in Ontario it seems as though they fetch around $800 - $1000 depending on condition with a decent arm like a Rega RB300 or AQ PT6. Mk.III's and IV's will fetch the same without arms.

hobie1dog said:

Mark, I looked and noticed that mine has been modified.... I assume , as it has some regular coil springs installed. I hate it when a perfectly good design has been "tweaked". Just like my last TT ( an Oracle Delphi ) that had an aftermarket ceramic bearing assembly installed...bastard had a noise in it every rotation...it was meant to be run completely dry...really shitty design, and I had similar speed issues so I sold the thing on Ebay. I had wanted one of those for 15 years or so, and ended up finding out it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.....leaning towards that brand new- stock- Technics SL 1200 Sounds like I'm talking myself into it pretty rapidly...I'm just getting old, and tired of screwing with this high-end-tweaking/never ending hassle with exotic and overpriced equipment.

So what are used HW-19jr's selling for these days?

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Hello Hobie, That's of course part of the problem buying used, as you maybe weren't aware that the stock junior table came only with Sorbothane pucks for a suspension.

But for years, Harry Weisfield touted the Spring suspension, jumping up and down, almost like he hit the lottery, that the spring suspension was "da bomb", was the sure way to go.

At one time, to take a simple "lowly" Jr model, to MK-IV status, with new MK-IV Lead Filled Platter, and Bearing, new Sub Chassis, which included a heavy stamped Sheet Metal Base Plate, with 1/2" Black Acrylic Plinth (Silicone glued to the steel base plate), seperate Acryilc Arm Board, either the standard 1/2" thick Armboard, or the 1.00" thick Super Armboard, all new Springs, specially tuned, and designed to carry the extra weight, and I think even a new "MK-IV" Motor Pulley Cover, was a $1,000, to an $1100 option, depending where you shopped at.

And of course this money still didn't didn't include the PLC Power Conditioner-Speed Controller.

Then years later, all of a sudden, users were starting to notice it was a bitch to just walk across the room, the whole table could be shaking, and bouncing. And as well, the table seemed to gain improvements in one aspect, and lose in others.

That's when many seen the light, and came to the realization, that the Sorbo Pucks did sound better "in thier opinion", and even harry seemed to concur.

There's a lot of different camps of thought out there in "internet land", and many began to perhaps conclude, that Harry maybe was nothing more than a BS Artist, selling "upgrades to the upgrades", only in the interest, of having blind followers of VPI empty thier wallets. In other words, the almighty dollar dictated the direction of VPI, rather than make a product that couldn't basically be improved upon.

There are others of course, who realized that Harry was not guilty of such charges, that he was an innovator, was learing as he went, was striving to make the best products, and continue to make his company move forward, rather than backward, or be stagnant.

There are many, me included, in many ways, that were glad Harry offered an upgrade path. That we had bought a table that could be improved when we were ready to go forward.

Harry's business is of course his business.

While I've been pretty much a faithful follower, I have had some minor disappointments, that some of the support has been dropped for the HW-19 Table.

One thing I notice, is that if you properly approach VPI, and have real issues with any Table, both past, and present, they have been a good company to deal with, they like seeing thier customers happy, and can offer both good technical support, and help with parts, many times free of charge. Thier stated warrantees often carry no time limit. I've found this out personally. Mark

MuthaFunk said:

Around here in Ontario it seems as though they fetch around $800 - $1000 depending on condition with a decent arm like a Rega RB300 or AQ PT6. Mk.III's and IV's will fetch the same without arms.

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I think mine has a Sumiko Premiere MMT tonearm on it. Right now I have a brand new Shure M97 on it, so is it better to sell it without the cartridge on it?

Yes, I'm reviving an old thread, but ready to get rid of my Jr. turntable. I'm wondering where to put it up for sale?

AKs Barter Town.