Geddes Abbeys, Yorkville Unity and E-Wave Advent listening session

Some of the local Denver audiogeeks got together this past weekend to listen to three different speakers using pro-sound drivers and waveguides.

The session was held in a dedicated listening room in the home of one of Mike. His system is mostly DIY or highly modified. The source for most of the tunes was a VERY modded SqueezeBox 2 with a tube output stage. It was feeding a DIY tube pre-amp which in turn fed a modded McIntosh 275. The room is highly treated with GIK room treatments. Separate dedicated AC lines are run for amps and front end components.

We started out listening to our host's Geddes Abbeys.



The Abbeys are placed on 16" high stands. The low end was supplemented with three Rhythmic servo subs with their own amps in each enclosure.







Next up were a pair of E-waved Advents. Unfortunately Jason, who took most of the photos, did not take any shots of these in the listening room.

I built this pair with higher end crossover components and added No-rez inside the cabinets. The crossover was mounted outboard in the speaker stands. Here are a couple of shots I took while I was building them



Advent with No-Rez installed.



Upgraded E-wave crossover installed in speaker stands.



Completed E-wave Advents on stands.

The next speaker we listened to was the Yorkville Unity U15. This is a Pro Sound speaker using Tom Danley's Unity Horn concept.



This has a compression driver for the highs and three cones for midrange all mounted on the same horn.

There is also a very high efficiency 18sounds woofer used.





I first built my waveguided Advents for a fun project. I had the cabinets for many years and thought I just might use them for occasional backyard parties. I was amazed at how well they sounded. I started researching the Waveguide concept and stumbled on information about Tom Danley and his Unity Horn. This was a waveguide that had a separate compresion driver for highs and cone midrange drivers both in the same horn. His current company now makes another unit called a Synergy Horn that also has 2) 12" drivers for low end. Yorkville Sound had licensed Mr. Danley's Unity concept and has produced a couple of speakers using a single compression driver for the highs and three cone mids all on the same horn.

I was excited to find a fellow Coloradan that had a pair of these U15s.

I got in touch with dwk to see if I could audition the Unitys and it turned out he was in the process of redoing his listening room. He asked if I would be interested in borrowing his speakers for a week or so. HELL YES, I believe I said. Doug was kind enough to drive them out to me so I could listen to them in my system. I spent most of Halloween night listening to these and changing where they were in my room.

My first thought about these speakers were, and still are, DYNAMICS. At 98 dB@1W/1m they don't need much power to get going. At 127 max spl output they can keep going long after your have given up. During my time with the U15 in my system, I heard far more detail and emotion from my recordings. The high efficiency brought out subtleties that used to be buried in the mix. There was far more expression coming through Clapton's fingerings and Miles' breaths.

All is not perfect. There is some oddity going on in the mids. On some recordings everything sounds great. On others it seems something has gotten lost. On my VMPS it was very easy to tell differences between studios, lablel etc. The Unitys made all recordings sound very similar. I could hear more into the recording, but the overall tone was uniform.

I was very interested to compare the Yorkville speakers to the Geddes Abbey. They both use Pro Sound divers. They both have unique designs for mids/highs. They are both fairly efficient. I got in touch with Mike to see if he would be interested. He was and this get together progressed.

I also got in touch with Tom to see if he would be interested in bringing his waveguided Advents. Mine having been torn apart to mod a pair of Wharfedale W-60Ds for my daughter.

All of the above was to set the scene for our listening session this past weekend.

This was the first chance I had to hear Mike's Abbeys. I have read quite a great deal about Dr. Geddes designs and was very much looking forward to hearing them.

The Abbeys were played first and sounded great. Very nice dynamics. Good image. Slightly recessed high end. Mike uses three Rhythmic subs spaced about his listening room. They were tuned to the Abbeys. There was no adjustment to the subs during the listening sessions.

The next up were the Advents. At first the high end was dominant . I went up and adjusted the L-pad to lower the output of the compression drive. Everything was then balanced out. I have to say they were closer in sound to the Abbeys than different. They had the same "tone" and evenness through the mids and highs. The Advent woofer is nowhere near as efficient as the B&C used in the Geddes, so they were not as dynamic. They did play lower but did benefit when Mike turned the subs on. All in all, I would have to say they were the value leader.

They could not play as loud as the Abbeys, they were not as dynamic. They did play deeper bass. Considering that these were built using 30 year old cabinets and refoamed woofer from the '70s they did a fantastic job. Of course, seeing as I built them, I may be a tad biased :wink:

Next up were the Yorkvilles. My first thought on hearing them was again DYNAMICS. They were so much more effortless in reproducing micro and macro dynamics. Mike put on a vinyl recording of Billie Holiday: "Songs for Distingue Lovers". The kick drum was in the room. Unfortunately, the muted trumpet was not. The same disconnect in the mids happened in Mike's room.

We switched back to the Abbeys on the same recording. The kick drum was muffled. The trumpet was there.

I took some interesting observations away from this session. I have become addicted to the dynamics of high efficiency pro drivers. I do believe that whatever speakers I own next will be built using said drivers. I also have become a convert to compression drivers in a waveguide. Which drivers and what waveguide still are yet do be determined.

I was expecting to be very impressed with the Yorkville U15's interpretation of Mr. Danley's Unity driver. I was more impressed with the 18sounds woofer they used. I would very much like to hear a true Danley Sounds Synergy system.

For me, the foam plug mutes too much of the top end of the compression driver. Without it, the Geddes waveguide is very harsh. The JBL waveguide used in the Advent build has the clean top end without harshness without need for foam. The overall sound of the Geddes Abbey IS superior to that of the E-waved Advent, but the Advent gets very close for a lot less money.

Wayne1 said:

The overall sound of the Geddes Abbey IS superior to that of the E-waved Advent, but the Advent gets very close for a lot less money.

Click to expand...

So the main improvement of the Geddes over the E'wave is the Woofer performance?

Russellc

Hello Russel.

To my ears, the biggest improvement is the dynamics. The Geddes can hit volume levels with a lower powered amp that the E-waved Advents can't. In listening to the Surprise Symphony by Haydn, The Mac ran out of steam at reasonable listening levels. The Geddes had no problem and the Yorkville was LOUD.

The waveguide/crossover design of the Geddes requires the use of the foam plug. The E-wave does not. The E-wave would play deeper in the low end, but it lost the sense of ease and the dynamics would be compressed.

No one who heard the two thought the E-wave was the lesser of the two speakers. It was operating under a different set of guidelines, being a less efficient, more full range speaker. It really should be powered with 150-200 wpc to reach the same sort of dynamic peaks that the Geddes does.

I think a speaker made with the same B&C driver and a more efficient woofer would come even closer to the Abbeys. The cabinet would need to be built following the Geddes guidelines with the large roundovers.

Eightensound has some plans for an interesting two way with their 15" woofer. I was very impressed with it in the Yorkville. It was superior in dynamics and definition to the B&C unit used by Geddes.

Eighteensound 15" 2 way kit

The cabinet would need some mods such as the roundover, but I think this would be a great project.

All in all, the E-wave Advents sounded really close in overall tone to the big Abbeys. For any speaker to do that is an accomplishment. To have done it with recycled parts and for under $1000.00 is quite a feat. Zilch and Jack Giff deserve major accolades for getting this project started.

Thanks for reporting on this interesting comparo. I think it's fair to say that the three speakers evaluated are not usually in the same room together. Yet they are all suited for this type of listening test.

I wish the sub was adjusted for each set of speakers. As you suggested, it may not have been optimized for the EWave and Yorkville sets. Basic FR graphs of the sub/main blend would be interesting to see as the more efficient Geddes and Yorkvilles require a sub.

Having said that, I have not read a comparo like this and I commend you guys for taking it on.

I wonder what the opinions were of other listeners in the group?

Adjusting the three subs would have taken hours to optimize for each speaker. As would F/R plots. Mike has spent many days moving his woofers about and changing the crossover points and volumes of his sub in relation to each other.

This was just to be an informal listening session. Not a comprehensive evaluation.

At first the subs were turned off with the Advents. Then, the two by the front wall were turned on. This did help extend the low end of the Advents to the bottom octave. Again, I have to mention that even with the subs tuned to the Abbeys, the Yorkvilles had the tightest, most extended and dynamic bass. I noticed the same thing in my system. I have a pair of VMPS Larger subs that were tuned for use with my VMPS standmounts. With the Yorkvilles in place of them, the bass was MUCH tighter. I have never experienced such room pressurization as with the Yorkvilles.

Here are some comments from Jason:

"We started listening first with the Abbys of course. I really loved the way the disappeared into the room. On well recorded classical they didn't even sound like they were there are all, just the orchestra. Quite impressive.

We then switched to the Custom built Advent cabinet speakers that Wayne built. They were pretty nice sounding. Very articulate and tight in the bass region for some bookshelves and nice extended high end. They did a great job of throwing an image as well. They were not fully broken in which manifested in a bit of a dry sound overall, but once everything has some time on it I'm sure it will go away. I'm not sure how I managed to miss them, but I completely failed to get a picture of them. Deepest apologies on that.

Next up were the Yorkvilles. These babies are not winning any beauty contests any time soon, but what they lack in looks they make up for in throwing a huge sound. We listened to some vinyl Billie Holiday and they did a wonderful job with the kick drum as well as instrument placement. They apparently have some issues with the crossover and need some EQing which we were unable to accomplish in this setup. I have heard them now in 2 setups and they generally sounded very nice, though I must admit I could never ever see owning these based solely on size and appearance.

Overall I thought the session was very enlightening. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing something completely different than what I am personally used to. I definitely see the appeal of horn based speakers and to my surprise the abbys and Waynes modded advents did not have a lot of coloration. The Yorkvilles did, but I'll forgive that due to the lack of some EQing.
"

From Mike:

"It was nice to have some folks over. Jason's pictures make the Abbey's look bigger than they are, though they are not small. For perspective the stands they are on are 17" high.

I really liked the little Advent rebuilds. At first they were too bright for me but I had not realized the L-Pads were still in the circuit. Once Wayne adjusted the CD level things got much better. They will play much lower than the Abbeys will but at the expense of sensitivity and the little Mc was running out of gas on orchestral music.

I like the Unities as well but they had some discontinuity in the midrange. Doug mentioned he was EQ-ing them specifically for his room and setup and they sound very different in that system. I don't doubt that in the least. I could see these in a larger room, I think that would work well."

Thanks Wayne.
:thmbsp:

Wayne,

Thanks for the invite- I definitely enjoyed being part of this listening session. It was fun to meet some local people as well and I hope to be part of future get togethers.

I've been a lurker on AK for awhile and really need to post some of my recent projects soon. However, my role is usually that of "Producer." I'm also lucky enough to live near Wayne.

I had to swap the advent woofers in the week prior to the listening session due to voicecoil rub. One advantage of the ewave concept is that parts are easily swapable and cheap. So, I got another pair of re-foamed woofers and swapped them in. The woofer tape I used wasn't ideal. So, the woofers weren't broken in yet and the seal likely could've been better. I did use mortite on the woofer frame (which the waveguides also had). I also haven't played around with removing any fiberglass (Wayne packed it in).

In my system I've been powering them with some "old" Hafler DH-220s that Wayne re-did for me:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=k327gmikfm91o1fgomhdkj8mi9iq5pv7&topic=69947.0

So, I've had no issues driving the advent ewaves due to power and have never felt them lacking (although at some point, I may still look into a sub). I primarily use a modified SB3 either run direct or via a DIY Jupiter Beeswax cap pre.

The biggest treat for me was hearing my speakers in a room that's been setup optimally (listening treatments, etc.) and with all tubes (source, pre, amp).

As far as comparisons, I was pleased to hear how well the Advents held up. I too, noticed something amiss with the Yorkville. However, I agree that they would likely sound incredible all dialed in and they do many things extremely well. To me though, that's too much work- It was nice to be able to just bring my speakers over and plop them down. Yes, a sub could add to the range of the advents, but it is nice to have a fair amount of low end even without subs.

I really liked the Geddes and was glad I got to hear them. Cosmetically, they looked great with the two relatively equal openings and rounded corners. Of course, my wife isn't complaining about the looks of the Advents either...

The Geddes really did completely disappear. One thing that all these waveguides have is an enjoyable experience throughout the room. I walked around a bit and also wasn't in the prime listening spot and they still sound great! Voices on waveguides are amazing.

Overall it was a great comparison, and I'd be game for something more involved at some point (measurements, etc.)...

I agree with Wayne about future (less econo) projects such as using the B&C DE 250 and possibly other cabintes/woofers. I've been following the AK thread on the DE 250 crossover work with interest for the QSC...

Very interesting comparisons - thanks for posting :thmbsp:

Very Interesting and Informative write up. Thanks for the insight! :thmbsp:

Now that's a comparison I would have very much liked to have heard. Nice write up and I bet you guys had fun :thmbsp:

RC

Thanks for the report! I doubt I'll ever get the chance to hear the Abbey's for myself so second-hand is as good as I can hope for.

FWIW, I have made foam plugs for my E'waves, and prefer them with the foam. I might feel differently if I was driving them with tubes, though. Currently they are used with a Panasonic HT receiver, and it may not have the suavest top end around.

Bill

Found this via another thread and it's been a great read! I have just recently started building my own DIY Synergy horn, so it's interesting to hear other listening impressions, although it can be hard to articulate what you hear in a way that someone else understands. The other person probably won't really get the idea unless they have heard similar, but these threads are always interesting still.

My DIY Synergy is on my blog:
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/03/diy-synergy-horn.html

and there is another one also in progress on DIY audio and as a result of these there are some other projects coming out. Wouldn't surprise me if we see a dozen of these floating around as a result.

I've also been involved in quite a few waveguide speakers in the last year, organising some little events to compare them and measure them:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/waveguide-shootout.html

I've now built omnis, open baffles, conventional multi way speakers, waveguide speakers and now a 60x60 Synergy. They are all different in the way they interact with the room. Omnis and open baffles to me are potentially quite close, with a big sweet spot and deep sound stage. You might think they would be more different. Conventional box speakers can sound small in comparison, although not necessarily. Waveguide speakers with say 90 degrees dispersion have a really clear image, nicely focused, something that the Omnis and OBs don't seem to do well. Love the depth of dipoles, don't like the way they do vocals for movies. Going from the waveguide speakers to a 60 degree Synergy was quite a surprise. The interaction with the room is quite dry, almost headphone like. I think they do better with recordings that have a fair amount of ambient information. Dry recordings don't do as well because there is so little room sound. Toole has written about spaciousness from side wall reflections and says that most prefer this over treating first reflection points. Geddes claims that narrower dispersion with constant directivity gives the best imaging. I think he is right about clarity and image focus, but not everyone will prefer this. I think 90 degree dispersion with controlled directivity provides a sweet spot, a good balance. I think the Synergy is a bit narrow in most versions, so I will be trying a 90 degree horizontal version, with 40 or 60 degree vertical. The Synergy doesn't like wide angles so much so it's a bit tricky to achieve.

Sounds exhausting. Did you actually listen to any tunes while you were at it?

This is why I like big E-waves. At least 95dB sensitivity, with bass below 30 Hz.

I'd love to put a pair of my double-15" E-waves (technically PA speakers, but built to strict E-Wave crossover spec on the horn, using the D2500TI-ND horn driver, with 2.5-way lows) up to compare to something like this, sometime. They definitely DON'T need a sub.

Regards,
Gordon.