best Vinyl to Digital tranfer

I recently purchased a VPI tt, Musical Surroundings PhenomenaNova and a Dynavector 17D3.

What the best way to transfer to digital without sacrificing SQ?

My PC has a mic input, USB, firewire, Roxio software, a sound card. I've recorded vinyl 10 years ago on my old PC using my mic input (for my aunt) onto a CD but I can't recall how well it sounded (I know it sounded ok, but never did critical listening)

It doesn't matter to me if it goes on CD or my hardrive. I just want the best sound possible. What should I need to purchase?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT 1:
I just checked my laptop and see I mistakenly identified my sound card. I really have a "SigmaTel High Definition CODEC" as a "Microphone / Line In" - this is what I see when I go to the Control Panel >Sound>Recording tab.
I also have it under the Playback tab under "Speaker / Headphones" and "Digital Output Device (S/PDIF)"

EDIT 2:
I also want to ask about using an iPod or other portable digital player. You need to get the WADIA iTranport to by pass the built in DAC in the iPod for $379 plus a DAC. Are there any players that have a digital out built in? that can play lossless files?

One thought that comes to mind is the M-Audio Transit. You would combine the stereo outputs to a mini plug into the Transit and connect the Transit to a USB port. One option for the software would be Audacity, which is free. The Transit comes with music software, too.

use a good sound card like an Asus Xonar. Then use software like AIPL singulator to record wave files. Then convert to FLAC for lossless compresion or Ogg Vorbis for smaller lossy but still better than MP3 files.

You may want to step up to an M-Audio board? They have RCA connectors and patch in directly. Also, place the sound card as far away from video card as possible.

You should try the line in on the soundblaster card first , not as audiophile as the M-audio one but sounds pretty good I think . Audacity is a nice free program as is Audiograbber.And the shorter the cables to the PC the better . Try it out and see what you think if you are not happy upgrade.

I second the M-Audio USB Transit...I own one.

While PCI cards are good...that means you either need long rca cables..or locate your gear next to the PC, which puts out a lot of noise. The magic of the M-Audio is that it comes with a 6ft USB cable...but your limitation is the same as any other USB device. So you can locate the unit near your gear, utilizing short cable paths...but have your PC located away from the entire process.

The problem with onboard cards, even some of the better ones...is that down at the noise floor...sometimes just below the noise floor, you get digital interference...and onboard cards are famous for this...it's like a pulsing....and it tends to get worse when you do something like move the mouse or use the CPU. I haven't heard them be that offensive since sometime int he late 90's, but the point is, even the XFi I had...down around the noise floor...it was there.

An external device is ALWAYS preferred vs an inboard card...even if it's a seperate card. The components aren't physically shielded that well and just around a bunch of noise.

Software wise...there's Audacity...but my biggest beef with it is that being a FOSS program...there's no money being dumped in to development...so it's a wonky program to use. It's not really a dedicated editor as much as it is a time-line editor...an editor that combines the functions of a sound editor in a multi-track enviroment. It has nothing to allow it to function as JUST an editor...so you're stuck wasting resources you might not even use. The effects...they're ok....but they're FAR from professional quality...mostly textbook implementations of FFT that's taken from already existing code source.

There's nothing exciting going on other than that it's free...and that happened because of the perceived gap and the fact that a lot of these methods had eventually been public-domained...reversed engineered...or what have you. I mean, they're really nothing groundbreaking. A friend showed me something in Audacity that he got all excited bout and all i could say was "I was doing that years ago in Adobe Audition".

Mostly, my beef with any "high-level" open-source audio application is just the fact it can't be that well developed. Not many people who are really good at DSP/FFT coding are going to donate their time to coding complex effects...and the people who are..just aren't that good at it. I think it's great...to a degree...it's getting the tools in the hands of people who can't afford them...at the same time..it's giving them sub-par results that if people start to use for serious nature...the overall quality of music is going to go down.

For just basic recording...splitting and such...it's a fine program..however it seems to have an issue of it will not actually record 24-bit audio from a 24-bit source (which the USB Transit is)...it says it is...but it apparently isn't interfacing properly...not sure if they fixed that bug or not..but last time I used it, it wasn't recording true 24-bit.

Another fine piece of software out there is Goldwave. It's a Windows only editor...and it's actually what I started using 12 years ago before there were any open-source editors. It's effects are, honestly, just about on par with Audacity..although it's editing interface is a bit more advanced and some of it's effects are just excellent. Again, a lot of text-book implmentation..but being a commercial program, there's incentive for the developer to work on it and improve it. It's also got the best licensing of any paid-for editor...there's a fully functional demo that will allow you a specific number of commands so you can fully try it out (saving included). $19 for a one-year license, $49 for a lifetime license (I can attest, I paid the old registration rate of $35 back in 1997 and I've never had a problem with the new versions). I mostly haven't had a lot of Audacity expierence because I started off with Goldwave...however, i've used it, I know it's limitations..and one can do a semi-decent vinyl restoration with it....probably about as good as what one can do with Audacity without all the extra confusion. Considering the problems I've had in the past recording 24-bit with Audacity, Goldwave is my go-to program for recording audio in to the PC.

If you're interested in doing full-blown restorations...taking out the crackle..noise...what-have ya...then I highly recommend Adobe Audition. The former Cool Edit Pro and full-fledged DAW isn't as pricy as Pro-Tools ($350), but it does just about all the same functions. It's various effects are really top notch and the plugin support for both it's own format, DirectX and VST is amazing. However, I don't use Audition alone..I also have the plugin ClickFix for Audition for doing a lot of click filtering...this little plugin has to do about the best job I've ever found for getting rid of the big offensive stuff quickly. Sure, it's an extra $35...but it's well worth it and rather than doing the simple interpolation around a click...it'll recreate a segment of audio to fill it in...and it does an amazing job. If you want to go all out...that's the route.

Also on the all-out route...there's Izotope RX. It's a HUGE resource hog, but it's effects are also seriously up there quality wise...I don't know exactly how much it costs...my copy was given to me by a studio guy to evaluate for them....it's really good...but takes a lot of time to process audio depending on your CPU speed.

Really, regardless of what software route you have...get a good sound interface first. I know an internal card is probably attractive....but...putting a PC next to your pre-amp isn't...and if you want to keep short cable runs to the sound card, that's kind of what you have to do. With the transit, I can put a 12ft USB cable on it and keep plenty of distance between the digital and analog gear...and they play nicely.

Ok, but samples...I'm sure you want samples of what the transit sounds like. I don't have any 96/24 samples online, they're simply too large for me to store online. I do however have some samples of vinyl transfers I've done with my Yammy PX-3 with the Shure M97Xe with the "damaged" stylus...you know, before I broke it (talked about in another post)

http://jay.is-lost.org/panamaredvinyl.mp3 <- this is a straight off the vinyl recording. I've done nothing to this file to clean it up/master it. this is the audio as it was recorded by my transit after it passed through my Denon's pre-amp. The only thing I did was a very careful and optimized downsampling to 16-bit with a 96khz noise shaping (pushes the noise shaping above 30khz) and then downsampled from 96/16 to 44/16...does a very nice accurate downsample with the noise-shaping noise getting removed. Compressed to 320kbps mp3 for transmission purposes.

(I have provided these links as EXAMPLES only. I do not publicly condone piracy of music. I've simply uploaded these for demonstration purposes. If anyone feels these links should be removed, let me know and I'll gladly remove them. Again, not here to give people music...but here to demonstrate what can be done. Thanks)

http://jay.is-lost.org/panamaredmaster.mp3 <- this is a fully restored and mastered copy...done from the exact same file and recording the first mp3 was done at. this is after I've done clean up and adjusted the EQ and such to compensate for any drift...cartridge timbre and to give it a nice rich sound. I'm not revealing my secrets on that one...however, this is the end result of what one can do with a Transit and Audition and a few hours of time.

http://jay.is-lost.org/cantina.mp3 <- electric moog's version of Cantina Band from star wars...this is a "mastered" copy after restoration.

http://jay.is-lost.org/bst-lucymcevil.ogg <- This is a track taken off the BS&T - Greatest Hits LP. Again, this is after restoration and mastering. I copied this to ogg because the people I originally sent it do happen to do a lot of ogg...but I'm sure if you want to hear it, you should be able to.

I seriously highly suggest you getting the Transit...for the money (about $80 - $90), you cannot find a better DAC/ADC (ok, it's a codec chip) anywhere. Supports standard sound input methods as well as having it's own ASIO driver. But if anything, you can locate it close to your gear while keeping your PC far away..that's why I highly recommend it.

i wish you luck with your needledrops.

Is Garage Band (on a Mac) a useful / capable program for tweaking and editing files ripped from vinyl? I want to start doing this soon, so I've been following all these threads. I've downloaded Audacity already but haven't played with it at all.

So many ways to do this, but here is my fave method. Turntable-tube preamp (with phono stage)-Sony HI-MD recorder (some of these units, like mine, will record an uncompressed PCM flow)-computer. My computer automatically converts PCM to WAV and then I use Soundforge for various "tamperings" (click removal, etc.). I get pretty good results...

Garage Band isn't a good app for recording analogue audio. I prefer Bias Peak, Soundtrack Pro, or Pro Tools of some kind on Macs. What kind of Mac laptop do you own?

Macbook (black) first gen... 2GHz Intel Core Duo (NOT Core2Duo). 2 Gig ram.

Thanks everyone!

Looks like the M-Audio is what to get. Before i take the plunge, is there anything that will give me better sound quality recording?

Subscribed, I so miss analog only.

Peter_Klim said:

Thanks everyone!

Looks like the M-Audio is what to get. Before i take the plunge, is there anything that will give me better sound quality recording?

Click to expand...

If money is no object, you could probably get a higher end card like an RME, or an Apogee digital converter, but I think the M-Audio would get you excellent sound.

I think the M-Audio would make some very good recordings. I use a 10 year old Aardvark audio card to record vinyl and the sound quality is amazing. The Aardvark was one of the best "pro-sumer" cards you could buy at the time, but I would expect a modern M-Audio card to have even better performance.

I just bought one of those M-Audio Transit USB soundcards based on Dewdude's recommendation. It was a nightmare to install on my new Macbook Pro, partly because I am a new Mac user and mostly because the old drivers that came with it, wont work with an Intel Mac. The uninstall program didn't work either and it took me a while to finally get it working. I downloaded and installed Audacity too and did my first 24/96 needle drop of Santana's Abraxas MOFI vinyl. It sounds fantastic! I highly recommend it. I also copied Carole King's Tapestry SACD and that came out excellent also. Oh yeah, it took a while to get the Transit working in 24/96 mode too. If anybody needs help getting it to work on a Macbook Pro, let me know while it is still fresh in my brain. Looks like I will be busy for the next few weeks ripping my vinyls and SACD's into Flac files.

Alesis Masterlink HD/CD Recorder

It is hard to beat the analog to digital converters in this unit for sound quality -- even today.

You can produce 24/96 AIF files or redbook cd's. One inconvenience is that to get the files onto your computer you have to burn them onto a CDRW. Despite this, it is what I use and I think it is fantastic product.

If you want higher resolution files with higher quality, the Lynx audio card in a PC can do it.

Art Dudley liked this product even more than the Alesis Masterlink for recording vinyl: http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl.html -- and it is only for Apple computers!

If there is a Guitar Center near you, you might enjoy going there and seeing what they might recommend. They carry a good selection of high quality professional recording interfaces (usb, firewire, etc. ) that will work.

Best, Stephanie

Peter_Klim said:

Thanks everyone!

Looks like the M-Audio is what to get. Before i take the plunge, is there anything that will give me better sound quality recording?

Click to expand...

Yes.

I had better results recording LP's to stand alone Hard Disc or Flash Memory studio recorders in 24/96 or 24/192 and then downmix to and create RedBook CDs internal on same stand alone hardware than I ever had doing anything on Windows platforms.

This have created digital recordings closer to the quality of my pro Open Reel master recordings than any PC could achieve.
Sure quality degrades when downmixed to RedBook.

I can't really say how Mac would do compared.

Main condition is to have best possible TT, arm, cartridge, phono stage.
If this is not ok, nothing will be.

IF you, despite these advices, choose to use PC, then make positively sure that the driver software of your soundcard disables windows internal mixer resampling (down and up again).
Go deep into this issue.
A lot of amateurs are really fooled here.
As I chose NOT to use Windows for such purposes due to lack of SQ, I will not be able to guide you through.

If you find your way through this issue, I would say recommend external soundcard which can provide decent quality from around $2.500 and up if you make proper research and matching audition tests.

"dolph"

Excellent and highly informative post by Dewdude.

I would agree with everything he said with one exception -- I've been using the same M-Audio 2496 PCI card successfully for over a deceade. I did end up doing a lot of settings tweaking on each install (I've had the card in 2 different PCs now) to prevent static/jitter/glithces during recording. And I had one card (a SATA I/O board) that definitely interfered with the M-Audio (I removed the card). Other than that, it's been rock solid with no detectable noise from the PC. But if I had to start from scratch, I'd probably pick the Transit.

Also, it hasn't been said here, but ClickRepair is far and away the best software for removing vinyl noise. The beauty of ClickRepair is that it's a standalone product that works independently of whatever audio editor you use. It just process the .wav file. I've used many different NR products, and nothing can touch ClickRepair.

OK, we're now getting pretty deep into this arena. That's all cool. If you want a lot of control while editing and you want to "remaster" the original signal to enhance bass, treble, or whatever - I suggest a copy of Diamond Cut software.

There are two ways to go about it.

You can get a non-RIAA phono section so that the signal comes in flat and then add a de-compression curve to the signal with Diamond Cut. There are like 7 basic curves to fool with including the stock RIAA curve.

Or, you can do what I do, that is to match the cartridge/needle to the recording. Some of my stuff just sounds better with one cartridge/needle before it goes into software. I like to get the sound I want before recording - whether it's to tape (analog to analog), or to digital. I find it takes less time if the signal is closer to the desired end product.

If you are using a Shure M97xE and a phono section with selectable phono loading you can get a lot a variance by fooling with the load settings. Low Impedance will give a dark cooler sound and higher impedance like 100K will give a bright sound (think AT440ML, not a). Some LPs (many) will need this kind of tailoring to get the best sound for mix CDs to go on the road. Especially if you are grabbing a track here and there.

Ok, I have a question about all this. I have a Pioneer CD recorder that I have recorded vinyl to. They are great sounding CD's after recording except for an ocassional pop, etc from the vinyl. Will any of this software that you are talking about remove the static and pops if I download the music to my pc and use the software to eliminate the noise? And then make a new CD afterwards.

tomrich22 said:

Ok, I have a question about all this. I have a Pioneer CD recorder that I have recorded vinyl to. They are great sounding CD's after recording except for an ocassional pop, etc from the vinyl. Will any of this software that you are talking about remove the static and pops if I download the music to my pc and use the software to eliminate the noise? And then make a new CD afterwards.

Click to expand...

Yes -- You'd need something like EAC to rip the CD tracks to .wav files, use ClickRepair to clean them up, and then burn them back to a new CD.