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Unidentified Grundig mono console questions

Patrice B

Super Member
A Grundig - Fleetwood mono console I bought yesterday. The thread started here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291992&page=2



Ok. I started the Grundig (without a variac...:)) and it emits a big hum. No doubt, the caps needs an overhaul.

There's also a wire disconnected probably originally tied to the electrostatic tweeters. Someone simply attached the wire with the ground lead around:
IMGP1409.jpg


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As you can see, there's also a missing connection to the mid speaker and I don't know where it must come from. The tweeters? The woofer?

It'll be another restoration project in the following months and the cabinet is now partly dismantled. This way, it will take less space in the car when moving it to the cottage...

Thanks.

Patrice
 
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Is there another tap on the output tranny? I have a dismantled EMUD that the mid was connected its own tap on the OPT and the commons were all tied together.
 
Ok... I think I got it:

I soldered the disconnected lead this way: the shield on the neg. side of one of the tweeters and the center lead on the pos. side.

Then, I soldered a new lead between the neg. of the woofer to the neg. of the mid.

Not sure it was this way but now I have sound from all speakers.

About another tap, I'm not sure... Maybe the woofer wasn't connected to the tweeters or the mid originally but it's hard to tell as someone butchered the job in this area.

Sure, a schematic of this thing would help but my web searches gave nothing.

The hum seems related to the volume pot because turning it to max=no more hum. Probably some caps or a pot that is shot...
 
Hmmm! A search on Radiomuseum returned nothing Grundig with EZ81 rectifier.

Maybe it is another german brand sold by Fleetwood...
 
Very standard ordinary German chassis with p/p output and full-wave tube rectifier, it will need to be totally recapped. Volume pot could be open. I'll see if I have a generic diagram somewhere to study. I think the cut-off yellow wire goes to the mid and the shielded wires went to the tweeter panels, probably now nonfunctional. There is probably a network under the chassis for those tweeters. I need to see a good pic of the top and the bottom of the chassis to know more.
 
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Is there an actual model number on it anywhere, or is it just called a Fleetwood? The only hits for Fleetwood I found are basically what I linked above. There is a seperate page for it, but it says to use the schematic for the model I linked.



Speaking of caps, does anyone know what exactly the plastic looking caps in these things are made from? I always figured they were a film cap of some sort, but I'm not sure. I have a couple of german sets, and I haven't been replacing the white or clear plastic looking caps. I'm just wondering if they're really paper caps in a deceiving case that I should be tossing. Some of the caps are clearly paper caps, and those I toss out. All in all, the caps in the Euro radios seem to be slightly more durable than domestic sets from the same time period. I have an unrestored 1957 Norelco sitting on my desk at work, and it gets daily 8-10 hour usage without complaints. I've metered the coupling caps and I show no voltage leakage, so I've been leaving it alone. I figure when it acts up, I'll fix it. Too many projects right now to mess with it.
 
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It's possible the 825 W number is the chassis model but a search returns very little. My lit search here gives 2 Philips models with very different p/p drive output schemes without an inverter/splitter stage. I don't see a tube on the Fleetwood's chassis for that function with the one view, otherwise appears the standard period German tubeset.

Gadget, if they are not plastic film caps, I'd replace at least the coupling cap to the grid of the output tube and any other that can put voltage on the volume control. Those can destroy unobtanium parts. Do check for leakers occasionally regardless.
 
Oh well...

I began to replace caps today and I surely made a mistake somewhere. There was a mess of caps tied to the volume pot and I probably put a wire or a cap at the wrong place.

I do not have bass control anymore and the sound is distorted. I didn't took pictures of before so now, I'm screwed without a schematic.

I'll go by trial and error by disconnecting and trying caps and wires on the different terminals. Oh boy...
 
It's possible the 825 W number is the chassis model but a search returns very little. My lit search here gives 2 Philips models with very different p/p drive output schemes without an inverter/splitter stage. I don't see a tube on the Fleetwood's chassis for that function with the one view, otherwise appears the standard period German tubeset.

Gadget, if they are not plastic film caps, I'd replace at least the coupling cap to the grid of the output tube and any other that can put voltage on the volume control. Those can destroy unobtanium parts. Do check for leakers occasionally regardless.

Any schematic you could have could help in some way...

Tube layout is:

ECH81
EF89
EABC80
ECC85
EM85 cat's eye
2xEL84 in PP
EZ81/6CA4 rectifier

Thanks.

Patrice
 
I'll check. Tho the basics are nearly always generic, the tone sections are where mfgrs riff their own variations.
The top chassis and underchassis photos could help, it appears the output ckt may be sim to a Philips Uranus 54 since I do not see a tube that could be a phase inverter/splitter in the tube layout. The Philips Colette does it with 2 OPTs in one channel apparently running some sort of split class 'A' paired SE arrangement, I don't think that's happening here. I'll see what I also have in Grundig of course but oddly my pickings are slim from that period.
 
Post a picture of the area where you changed those caps. Maybe something will be obvious to someone here. I would advise against random reconnecting. At least draw out your own schematic of the section as you now have it wired.

mike
 
Yeah! The problem was the speaker connections. Now that I've reconnected the electrostatic tweeters, I shouldn't had tied their negatives with the woofer...

However, the receiver is now haunted by hum like it was...

Add to this a wonderful oscillation when fiddling with treble (probably the electro tweeters).

Time to finish the recap...
 
Talk about service:

I emailed Pacifictv in Vancouver asking if they have the service data and received the full service manual this morning, freely...

To Pio1980, yes, it looks there's a network for the tweeters and it's why they can't be connected to the regular speakers. Doing so leads to distortion and low volume.

About an open volume pot, you see it by measuring resistance between legs I guess. I ask because it's maybe why the other german console I have (the Nordmende) gives me some troubles.

To precise about the oscillation on the Grundig. It's more a "squeal" instead when putting treble at max.

Thanks.

Patrice
 
First, note that the tweeter lines are connected to high voltage sources in the radio, excercise extreme caution with them!
More to follow.
 
OK, The output ckt is indeed unique, only the grounded grid cross-cathode coupled phase inversion is shared with the Philips Uranus. Otherwise it's UltraLinear-like with a cathode coupling back thru the OPT which is a very special item for this radio. Measure the larger speaker's resistance and connect the lower resistance one to the tap and the higher to the end. If same, connect woofer to upper and mid to tap and see if it sounds reasonably well tone-balanced at neutral tone settings once working. Phasing matters between the cone drivers, there will be a 'hole' in the mid-bass response if wrong. Drivers are polarized, brown common wire probably low/ground and other sides to xformer tap and high end.
The tweeter ckts are always problematical with age, I'd assume the tweeters may be shorted and disconnect the network at C601/EL84 plate and ignore it and the tweeters for now. If it continues to squeal there may be stability issues related to working tweeters not HF-loading the lower output tube's plate. We'll deal with that later if necessary. Otherwise it may be a mis-wire in the tone ckts. Fortunately for us the tone ckts in this radio are relatively simple compared to other examples. Use the schematic to get the volume/tone ckts back to design, resistance test the volume control end-to-end and to the center wiper while turning the volume knob from both ends. If all good, we go onward with next stage of diagnosis if necessary.
 
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OK, The output ckt is indeed unique, only the grounded grid cross-cathode coupled phase inversion is shared with the Philips Uranus. Otherwise it's UltraLinear-like with a cathode coupling back thru the OPT which is a very special item for this radio. Measure the larger speaker's resistance and connect the lower resistance one to the tap and the higher to the end. If same, connect woofer to upper and mid to tap and see if it sounds reasonably well tone-balanced at neutral tone settings once working. Phasing matters between the cone drivers, there will be a 'hole' in the mid-bass response if wrong. Drivers are polarized, brown common wire probably low/ground and other sides to xformer tap and high end.
The tweeter ckts are always problematical with age, I'd assume the tweeters may be shorted and disconnect the network at C601/EL84 plate and ignore it and the tweeters for now. If it continues to squeal there may be stability issues related to working tweeters not HF-loading the lower output tube's plate. We'll deal with that later if necessary. Otherwise it may be a mis-wire in the tone ckts. Fortunately for us the tone ckts in this radio are relatively simple compared to other examples. Use the schematic to get the volume/tone ckts back to design, resistance test the volume control end-to-end and to the center wiper while turning the volume knob from both ends. If all good, we go onward with next stage of diagnosis if necessary.

Trying to digest all this info...:D

Anyway, it'll be simpler for me to show pics and how it is connected now.

Below, the green and yellow wires coming from underside were initially connected to the biggest speaker (I didn't touched and let it this way):

IMGP1412.jpg


IMGP1413.jpg


As you could see below, they're tied on one side (green) to the socket ground lug (this lug is also tied to the one of the external speaker terminal). I assume it goes to the negative side of the woofer. Yellow side is tied to a green wire coming from the OPT. Someone worked here as I guess the colors were inverted:

IMGP1414.jpg


On the preceding pic, you could also see the "other" connection, a shielded wire of some sort. The red end is tied just after a 200k resistor. Looking at the schematic, it should go to the tweeter positive I guess? The shield is tied right at a yellow wire also coming directly form the opt. Where should it go? Below, a pic of the tweeters, soldered together on the positive side I guess, with the red end soldered right there. It was disconnected when I got the receiver:

IMGP1418.jpg


Weirdly, connecting the "shield" to the neg. side of the tweeters, there's sound. Connecting the red end and the shield together to the pos. side of the tweeters, there's sound also...:scratch2:
Connecting the negative side of the woofer to the neg. side of the tweeters, there's sound...:scratch2::scratch2:
I'm lost!

Following, a pic of an unused orange wire coming form the OPT. I don't know what's the purpose (maybe to connect to the mid?):

IMGP1416.jpg


Do you think someone messed up the connections?

About the squeal, it does it even if the tweeters aren't connected and it even kind of oscillate with a certain amount of volume and treble...

The 295v I should have right after the rectifier is not there too. I got 277v instead. :scratch2:

All tubes tested in the "good" range on my (calibrated) Jackson 648 tester for the record.

Thanks for any help.

Patrice
 
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