Vintage high-end CD vs. modern cheap CD/SACD?

I'm not a big digital guy so I'm curious as to what the opinions are out there. For a couple years now I've been using a Kinergetics KCD-40 Platinum CD player in my main system. It's an extremely high-end CDP from around 1992, all solid machined aluminum and glass, built like a Bryston power amp. $2200 and got good Stereophile reviews, weighs a ton.

Just today someone gave me a Sony SCD-CE595 SACD changer from 2006. This seems to be a well-received unit on the lower end of things. I'll of course compare them with my own ears, but I'm wondering how far CDP technology advanced in the 14 years between things. Not to mention the fact it'll do SACDs (which I don't really have many of, though.)

Thoughts?

With the caveat that I haven't heard that particular Sony, in general I'd have no hesitation in choosing a modern mid-line CD player over any player at all from 1992. The Kinergetics was certainly excellent in its day, but there's been a lot of progress IME.

If the vintage player has a digital output... get a nice DAC and have the best of both worlds (and keep the Sony for SACDs... I picked up an inexpensive Yamaha multimode changer from AKer Audiodon for just that purpose m'self).

No digital out. It was an option, but at the time Kinergetics was making those things it wasn't standard. It's a sexy beast, though.

Thanks for the pic!

Perhaps progress in the digital signal end but the analog portion of the player can affect things. So a pretty cheap modern player is gonna use maybe IC audio amps, either maybe highly regarded parts or cheapest available parts, who knows. And perhaps surface mount parts instead of plug in, to complicate matters if you want to sub them. At least with a "high end" machine, they probably payed more attention to the analog side of the equation. Then again the Sony might just sound fine, they do generally have good quality of electronics, if not always comparable to top stuff.

This type of question comes up pretty often here. You've gotten some good responses.

I'd just add that a precise answer depends on various factors such as the age of the "vintage" component, quality of the new one, etc. I'm not sure you'd hear a huge improvement between your high end older player and an entry level Sony.

In general build quality has gone down but the technology of digital to analog converters (DACs) has progressed rapidly, especially in the past few years. So the suggestion to pair up a mid to high-end vintage player with a modern stand-alone DAC is a good one, although unfortunately not an option for you it seems.

IMHO, an older high end player will have a superior transport and analog section than a new inexpensive machine. Those factors are very important to the overall sound. In my experience, my 1990 Sony ES CDP-X77ES was the best digital player I heard and was better than any newer player I tried or external DAC I used in terms of detail and effortless playback, this is of course just my opinion and everyone hears differently.

That said, would I recommend an old player? Probably not, just due to lack of parts for them.

In my very limited experience, I'm surprised to say that I'd probably pick the more recent player. For some time I was using a Sony DVPS7000 as my digital source; this was a high-end DVD player from 1999 (I think) with an excellent analog end. Very good-sounding player, solid, heavy and stable. But recently I picked up a fairly recent (2006, maybe?) Sony DVP-NC875V for its SACD capability. The DVP-NC875V is less than half the weight than the DVPS7000, it takes forever to load a disc and makes a terrible whirring noise as it does it. But, once the disc is loaded, the sound is excellent. There was nothing wrong with my old player on Redbook, but the newer one, for all its crappy build quality, has a lower noise floor, clean highs, tight bass, and still remains musical and non-fatiguing. And even in 2-channel (which is all the channels I got) SACD sounds terrific.

Of course, this is with my system, which includes early 60s speakers which are not all that revealing and may be taking some of the digital "edge" off the newer Sony player. YMMV

My own experiences seem to be a minority here: I've never heard a cheap DVD player that sounds close to a very good vintage CDP (e.g., Denon DCD-1650G -japanese version of the DCD-2560 or even a humble Philips CD-350). Good contemporary CDPs like a Cambridge Audio 640 C v2 are in another league than those cheap all-in-one players, at least to my ears. I listen only to classical music and I am very familiar with the actual sound (which never involves amplification) of the instruments. A cheap DVD player never even approached the sound of a bass drum or the cymbals (my impression is that there is some software there to enhance bass, etc, but the resulting sound is artificial, different from the real sound). Anyway, that is my impression, but if I am wrong, then people shouldn't even bother buying expensive CDPs since that would be a waste of money.

I think people are over-generalizing on the DACS.

My impression was that the parallel 16-18 bit DACS used in the 80s put out some very good sound quality. When serial 1 bit DACS were born in the early 90s, sound quality took a huge hit and didn't recover until that technology improved 10 years later.

So, from my experience, many of the players I've heard from the 1980s and 2000's sound good, but there was a lot of crappy sounding stuff that came out of the 90s.

Well I'm going to revive this thread as I am at a crossroads in my audio system. I have been playing with audio since the 70's and have collected tons of stuff over the years. My current system comprises Yamaha NS-1000M's, Golden Tube GTA-40 amp and a 12AX7 simple preamp. Technics SL-1200 table and the following CD players to choose from. I am in need of a new DVD player as well and is why I am posting this here. I too wonder how some of these old players might compare with the modern players like the Rega and what I am currently considering, the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV. I had a quick listening session last night and was surprised at how well the Pioneer sounded compared to my current player in the system, the Rega Jupiter. I will slowly rotate thru the other players I have for comparison but would like some input from users of the following players.

Current players in my collection include

Cal Audio Labs Icon
Kinergetics KCD-40
Parasound CDP-1000
Rega Jupiter
Denon DCD-1520
Denon DVD-1730 (tracking problems on some DVDs)

Also have lots of speakers to play with. B&W 802, Linn Nexus, Proac Tablettes, Allison 3's, JBL 4311 and more I can't think of but that's material for another thread. And then come the amplifiers to play with.... Threshold Stasis II, Sonic Frontiers SFC-1, Levinson No.332, Opera Audio Consonance, custom built full Class A 50 WPC and probably some others...again, another thread. Ohh this is so much fun. I can hardly wait until I knock out the wall to make my living room bigger.

Cheers

Paul

Some of the vintage players had extremely stable, low-jitter transports, better than almost anything made today, and a few of them actually sounded pretty good. Some of the early recordings sounded bad, though. But DACs overall have improved a great deal, with better resolution and more analog-like sound quality. If you can combine the two effectively --a well-made transport with a great new DAC-- it might give great "best of both worlds" sound. Be aware, though, that the connections between the units often introduces jitter, which should be minimized and which possibly has to then be electronically removed, to prevent it from more than offsetting the gains from the better DAC.

That said, SACDs are inherently better, with a higher level of data that translates into greater sound quality. Even a mid-quality SACD player with an SACD disk should out-perform even a good redbook CD player. SACD is the format that finally approached in quality what all the false hype and hopes for CDs was like when they were first introduced... sadly, it died in the mass market almost as soon as it came out (stillborn, really, due to some bad corporate decisions), although happily, there is still a substantial niche market for it, and lots of great titles available if you seek them out.

All that said, however...

ALL CD players, are being made pretty much obsolete by advances in hard-disk based replay. Use something like EAC (Exact Audio Copy) to copy your CDs to a hard disk. Ideally, use a solid-state (no laser, no spinning) hard disk, to eliminate that source of jitter. Take the signal directly out via USB, to avoid the relatively noisy computer environment and poorer-quality built-in DACs (even in "good" sound cards). Use something like a Trends Audio UD-10.1 to feed a good external DAC, or use a good DAC with built-in USB input. Add anti-jitter and upscaling, if your CD isn't already high-res. The sound output will amaze you; it equals or bests the most expensive CD players.

You can pay a lot of money to get this technology in a stand-alone music server, or you can do it today with any computer and a few peripherals, for less cost. Virtually all of the high-end audio showrooms here selling megabucks exotic gear have switched to this kind of source over the past two years, although many still have TTs and allow A/B comparing of vinyl and digital... there really isn't much difference; the differences between the actual recordings are greater than the differences between the TYPE of recording (media).


I'd say the best overall set-up would be a state-of-the-art hard-disk-based server for CDs and a high-end SACD player, to provide a digital balance to the all-analog tape and vinyl sources.

Wow! Sounds like I have some serious catching up to do with the technology!! :scratch2: I have been out of the game for a while now, raising my son, and keeping ahead of the game but want to re-enter the serious hifi enjoyment again.

Thank you for the very informative post. I think I get the jist of your thoughts. Let me rephrase to see if I have it.

I take the CD in my best transport, record the music onto the computer using??? interface, and preferably onto a non-mechanical storage medium such as RAM card or other non spinning storage, then output that file thru an external DAC that has a USB input. Question is, how do I get the music from the CD to the computer in the best fashion? i.e., do I need a card that accepts SPDIF or coaxial data? I have an Omni Delta 66 currently. It may have SPDIF.

I will have to search the web to find out more about this. Sounds cool though and I love technology. I am just 10 years or more out of date. At least my computer is only 3 years old.

Thanks again!

Paul

Well I am not an expert in any shape manner or form but I just switched my CDP again I bought a Nak CD player 3 about a year ago at local thrift $10. I listened to it as a secondary bedroom unit but really didn't like it much probably the rest of the system wasn't up to the task it would be now I rearanged that too recently. Well the other night as I am wont to do I decided to make another switch in the mancave system and swap out my Sony es series 5 disc unit with something else. I came across the Nak in my stash and decided "What the Hell" Well I have been missing something for sure it blew the doors off my sony. Huge sound soundstage for a 1991 unit Crisp without fatigueing clear clean bass. I was listening to Lunasa an Irish band the flutes very palpable violins very woody and sounded real. I know what a real violin sounds like as my wife plays one and well! Now I have heard this band live and it sounded like they were in my basement. Isn't that what it's about? approximating how they really sound in your house? This was a expensive unit new for the time so I would say a excellent older CDp can excede a new cheapo unit even new MIdfi. I understand the older chips were very well made especially the Burr Brown dacs which is what this unit has
Dwight

ve7kilohertz said:

Well I'm going to revive this thread as I am at a crossroads in my audio system. I have been playing with audio since the 70's and have collected tons of stuff over the years. My current system comprises Yamaha NS-1000M's, Golden Tube GTA-40 amp and a 12AX7 simple preamp. Technics SL-1200 table and the following CD players to choose from. I am in need of a new DVD player as well and is why I am posting this here. I too wonder how some of these old players might compare with the modern players like the Rega and what I am currently considering, the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV. I had a quick listening session last night and was surprised at how well the Pioneer sounded compared to my current player in the system, the Rega Jupiter. I will slowly rotate thru the other players I have for comparison but would like some input from users of the following players.

Current players in my collection include

Cal Audio Labs Icon
Kinergetics KCD-40
Parasound CDP-1000
Rega Jupiter
Denon DCD-1520
Denon DVD-1730 (tracking problems on some DVDs)

Also have lots of speakers to play with. B&W 802, Linn Nexus, Proac Tablettes, Allison 3's, JBL 4311 and more I can't think of but that's material for another thread. And then come the amplifiers to play with.... Threshold Stasis II, Sonic Frontiers SFC-1, Levinson No.332, Opera Audio Consonance, custom built full Class A 50 WPC and probably some others...again, another thread. Ohh this is so much fun. I can hardly wait until I knock out the wall to make my living room bigger.

Cheers

Paul

Click to expand...

If it were my decision, I'd choose the Jupiter in a heartbeat. But IME CD players have come a long way in recent years (like the last decade), and whether headed toward obsolescence or not (I personally think claims of the mediums demise are very premature), there are some fantastic choices out there in the used market. Aside from the Jolida tube CD player, which I bought new, the other two in my signature were made within the past 5 or 6 years, and I've been thrilled with them.

I'm not sure if you're limited to the CD players in your list, or if you have a budget to get another one. I think if you had about $400 you could just buy a used Rega Apollo and call it a day.

Arkay said:

All that said, however...

ALL CD players, are being made pretty much obsolete by advances in hard-disk based replay. Use something like EAC (Exact Audio Copy) to copy your CDs to a hard disk. Ideally, use a solid-state (no laser, no spinning) hard disk, to eliminate that source of jitter. Take the signal directly out via USB, to avoid the relatively noisy computer environment and poorer-quality built-in DACs (even in "good" sound cards). Use something like a Trends Audio UD-10.1 to feed a good external DAC, or use a good DAC with built-in USB input. Add anti-jitter and upscaling, if your CD isn't already high-res. The sound output will amaze you; it equals or bests the most expensive CD players.

You can pay a lot of money to get this technology in a stand-alone music server, or you can do it today with any computer and a few peripherals, for less cost. Virtually all of the high-end audio showrooms here selling megabucks exotic gear have switched to this kind of source over the past two years, although many still have TTs and allow A/B comparing of vinyl and digital... there really isn't much difference; the differences between the actual recordings are greater than the differences between the TYPE of recording (media).

Click to expand...

Great post! I totally agree. I also highly recommend the M2Tech Hiface device between the PC and your choice of dac.

Rega Apollo

Mr. Lin said:

If it were my decision, I'd choose the Jupiter in a heartbeat. But IME CD players have come a long way in recent years (like the last decade), and whether headed toward obsolescence or not (I personally think claims of the mediums demise are very premature), there are some fantastic choices out there in the used market. Aside from the Jolida tube CD player, which I bought new, the other two in my signature were made within the past 5 or 6 years, and I've been thrilled with them.

I'm not sure if you're limited to the CD players in your list, or if you have a budget to get another one. I think if you had about $400 you could just buy a used Rega Apollo and call it a day.

Click to expand...

I've been "buy searching" the Apollo. I would strongly suggest doing the same with the older models. Many have reported read error issues, at least until 09', based on what I have found.
That being said... I listened to a 10' Apollo today and it's beautiful (To my ears). If at all possible, I will try to listen, before I buy, from now on...(Unless it's a vintage "deal").
I will go back to the dealer with several discs in hand and then make the call. FYI, Rega is doing a trade-in deal at the moment. The current price is $850.

ve7kilohertz said:

Thank you for the very informative post. I think I get the jist of your thoughts. Let me rephrase to see if I have it.

I take the CD in my best transport, record the music onto the computer using??? interface, and preferably onto a non-mechanical storage medium such as RAM card or other non spinning storage, then output that file thru an external DAC that has a USB input. Question is, how do I get the music from the CD to the computer in the best fashion? i.e., do I need a card that accepts SPDIF or coaxial data? I have an Omni Delta 66 currently. It may have SPDIF.

Click to expand...

One of the great things about EAC is that it works great with a standard PC CD-ROM drive. It's not playing the music while it's ripping, so it can read the same segment of the disc multiple times to get the best result.

You can find a guide to using EAC here: http://blowfish.be/eac/

I find FLAC files a lot more convenient than CDs to deal with, and the sound quality is the same to my ears.

I've been going over this in my head for days, and my SO is no help. What about something like a sony cdp-x3000es? Really hi end sony ES stuff from 98, seems like thats in the middle of the year pack, vs new. I will say I used the DAC on my JVC TOTL receiver, and it was better than my Sony 333es SACD changer. Too many choices. Oh and the sony cdp-x3000es is also pretty cool looking. would look nice next to a turntalbe and rtr.