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Recording Artist with questions about vinyl

B

benfolds

New Member
Hello. I'm new here and just introduced myself on the newbie page.

I play piano, make albums and tour etc. My career began in the CD era and labels haven't given much time to vinyl.
However I've just made my newest recording with vinyl in mind from the first steps to the mastering and I wanted to get some feedback before forging ahead with the label because there are a few choices on how to cut. Its a quality/price thing.

Here are my questions for those who are passionate about records:

1: Its not easy or cheap to do Direct Metal Mastering and it needs to be done at Abbey Road because there seem to be only 2 DMM lathes left - none in the US. When you think on your record collection do you feel the quality of DMM is worth the few extra bucks the process will add at the record shop?

2: I have a few LPs cut at 45rpm and I think they sound great. Do most high end turntables play at 45? I'd hate to push for 45 to find out that many vinyl fans aren't even able to play the record!

3. Any thoughts on 180 gram vinyl?

Thank you in advance for your time.

Ben Folds
 
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1 - Abbey Road does great work
2 - 45s do sound good but don't run long enough
3 - The heavier the better

Just my experiences

Cheers, Timo.
 
Hello Ben and welcome to AK! As far as the answer to your first question I will leave that one to someone who may be more familiar with the technology. Most tables play at 45. The draw back is that you are limited to much less time so if you are recording a full album you will have to space it over several records. I know that some of the early Jazz pressings are being re-released in this format and the reviews have been very good. 180 gram and up is considered a premium in newly pressed vinyl. The extra weight does speak quality but if the pressing and engineering are no good then IMO it really means nothing. It really all boils down to a good recording along with good engineering then finally quality control when it comes time to pressing.
 
Yes Spartanmanor - we'll split the album and it will work for 45 or 33 that way. At 45 the longest side will be 20 minutes which is safe.
About DMM. People who know the technology (the mastering engineer Bob Ludwig suggested we do this on this record) say its a good thing. My issue is that it makes the record more expensive. But maybe its like wine. People might be happy to pay for what has been guaranteed quality in pressing, rather than take a risk spending slightly less?
 
Hi Ben, and welcome to AK...

I own a few DMM LP's and yes, they do sound really nice. However, I don't know if today it is worth the extra expense. I think that the average LP buyer is not as into the quality as they used to be when DMM was more widely used. I tend to think that us vinyl freaks around this forum are a little more on the higher end of sound quality than most others out there are. I see kids all the time looking at vinyl in stores, yardsales, and where ever else you can find it sold, and a lot of those tend to have ipods stuck in their ears.

Even if people into vinyl are looking for a higher end sound, most out there aren't dropping the bigger money for the nicer tables. I would venture to guess the average table in use today is at least 20 years old, and the stylus probably close to that too. As I said, I think that's the majority. I still think most of us on this forum are the minority buying newer tables, and keeping our gear in like new condition maintenance wise.

As far as 45 speed goes, I do find that with well mastered material, they do sound richer and fuller. As far as 180G goes, I don't believe the weight makes a real audible difference in sound. Granted, it can isolate the stylus a little more from the platter and vibrations, but I don't think enough people listen critically enough or have good enough ears to hear the difference. I've got some paper thin LP's that sound fantastic.

As mentioned, if you do an LP in 45, you're going to have to consider the costs of 2 or 3 disks in the set to make a complete album. As far as weight goes, everyone likes the feeling of a nice heavy LP and loves that heft, and feels they are getting more for their money.

I really believe the two biggest considerations for cost effectively creating an album of exceptional sound is Excellent Mastering and Quality Vinyl and Pressing
 
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Please keep us updated on the progress/release of your new record.
I would love to get it when it evolves.
 
I think I'd listen to Mr. Ludwig - every album I've heard that he mastered sounds fantastic.

Almost every turntable out there will play at least 33 and 45, the two standard "modern-era" speeds. There are a handful of 33-only tables, but they're a minority.
 
One other thought I just had...

As far as the vinyl you are to press the album on, I'm not sure if anyone is still using it or pressing it or not, but I am a really huge Quiex II fan. I go out of my way to find true Quiex LP's and will replace almost anything in my collection (over 3000 LP's) with a Quiex pressing. I find them much better sounding than the heavier 180g disks pretty much all the time. I only bring this up because it sounds like you are highly considering the actual vinyl you are pressing this on.

You also have to stop and think about your typical fan. Do you think most are going to be worried about the quality or type of the vinyl and recording more, and what kind of equipment most would have, or do you think more of them are fans because of your music. What would be the biggest advantage to your fan base, dropping the money into better mastering, or better disks?
 
Hi Ben, my son will be pleased to hear you're doing vinyl.
I have a contrary opinion on the 45/DMM/180. If you do that, the album will be great but based on what's out there it will be too much moeny for many folks. At least $50 judged by the current 45/180gm market.

The biggest thing you can do is to not master it like it was a CD. Also, from my experience, sadly DMM and 180 gm don't guarantee a quality pressing. Have you talked to Chad Kassem and the folks at Blue Heaven Studio? I know they have a Neumann lathe.

benfolds said:
Yes Spartanmanor - we'll split the album and it will work for 45 or 33 that way. At 45 the longest side will be 20 minutes which is safe.
About DMM. People who know the technology (the mastering engineer Bob Ludwig suggested we do this on this record) say its a good thing. My issue is that it makes the record more expensive. But maybe its like wine. People might be happy to pay for what has been guaranteed quality in pressing, rather than take a risk spending slightly less?
Click to expand...
 
I'm not sure, but I think there's at least one DMM machine in Canada still. There were some DMM recordings done in Toronto not that many years ago. Unfortunately I'm not sure where the machine might be located presently.
 
Hi Ben, welcome to the forum. 180 gram records are well worth the asking price for me. I have hundreds of them and am constantly buying my favorites from TTVJ over in Three Forks, MT. A digital recording just can't approach the reality and warmth of a good vinyl recording. I find it hard to believe that Abbey Road is the only option left as far as cutting vinyl. There are so many independent labels on the West Coast still putting out records. For the style of music you put out, which I really like by the way, I would think a vinyl option would be excellent. I would buy it!:thmbsp:
 
As a 20-something who will probably be buying your record:

33rpm is fine, and please make it so it fits on one record (unless it's more than an hour long). It's a pet peeve of mine when artists will split up their album on two vinyls, when it can easily fit on one. They say it's for the sake of sound quality, but then why do I have tons of 33rpm albums where every track sounds fantastic? One vinyl at 33rpm is just fine :)

180 gram is always nice as well, but not entirely necessary. Perhaps it'll be less likely to warp over time.

Please, make sure it's under 20 bucks. Vampire Weekend just released "Contra" on vinyl, 180 grams, excellent sound quality, $14. If they can do it, I'm sure you can too :)

Good luck, looking forward to it.
 
Thanks everyone so far. Good stuff.
Fopp. I'll look into how Vampire Weekend pulled that off. As far as album splits, yeah, I hear you, but it seems most of the records from vinyl era are still much shorter than today. My record is 45 minutes and I've been strongly advised that the two album split is much better. Will cross examine some experts on that one too. What kind of science do you practice?
 
I'm a PhD student at NYU studying neuroscience.

Built to Spill is one band I'm thinking of, who split their album "Keep it like a Secret" on two vinyls. It sounds great, but I find that I'm less likely to listen to it because I have to flip it two times. Sounds like I'm lazy, but I'm not. It's just much nicer to be able to relax and listen for a half hour without having to get up every 10-15 minutes. I'm sure there are other folks who don't mind.

45 minutes seems like it should fit okay on one disc. One of my favorite albums (for the music and the sound quality), is Van Morrison's Moondance. It's pressed on one disc, and it's 38 minutes long. VP's Contra is at 36 minutes. I am no expert on vinyl production, so perhaps 45 minutes is approaching the point where two discs are needed. If that's so, I guess there's nothing you can do.

As for the price, I can tell you that I've purchased countless 180 gram "audiophile pressings" that cost $25-30. I'm not opposed to it, but it's always nice to see a new record for under $20. I'm also more likely to take a risk buying a record from a group I've never heard about if it's under $20.
 
I am with Fopp on this one as far as putting it out on 33.3 as apposed to a collection of 45's. The sound quality diff would be insignificant to 99% of your audience but the convenience of not having to flip all those sides not to mention clean the records is a bigger draw. When I get into a grove of spinning full length albums I am less likely to pull the 45's.
 
I agree about the 45's myself as far as flipping them.

I bought about 40 12" 45's last weekend and gave about 10 of them a listen... It really does get pretty involved time wise trying to listen to them.. but the music on them did make it worth the effort..
 
benfolds said:
1: Its not easy or cheap to do Direct Metal Mastering and it needs to be done at Abbey Road because there seem to be only 2 DMM lathes left - none in the US. When you think on your record collection do you feel the quality of DMM is worth the few extra bucks the process will add at the record shop?
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum!

From Wikipedia:

As at 2009 there are six or seven DMM cutting facilities left in the world - all located in Europe. The USA lost its last DMM cutting facility in 2005 with the demise of New York City based record manufacturer Europadisk LLC. Europadisk's DMM lathe was sold at auction on 20-SEP-05 to the Church of Scientology for US $72,500. This gives CoS two DMM lathes for the purpose of transcribing L. Ron Hubbard's speeches to disc and with the development of their wind-up record player to be entombed in time capsules, this would create a system to commit those speeches to posterity for years to come.
Click to expand...

Do you happen to have any Scientology friends? Maybe butter up Tom Cruise with free CDs and T-shirts and you'll have an "in"!:D

I agree with others on here. 180 Gram and 45's aren't needed and < $20 per album would be amazing. I see Black Keys albums for $15 all the time and wonder why other bands can't do the same.
 
I have worked in the industry. I worked for GRT who owned Chess/Janus records back in the day. I can tell you that you are looking at this from the front end. But the customer will be looking at this from the back end. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in between :(

I'd make the best master I could, but not worry about DMM. We all have very good LPs that we know about on standard vinyl too. It's how the process is handled at the pressing plant that will make or break your record. 33 1/3 is fine. It can go to 30+ KHz and do good bass, so why push for more? Audiophiles have the cartridges to get it, and other folks won't know the difference.

Two of the biggest problems are cross talk (one groove bleeding into the next) and dirty vinyl (regrind, blisters, pimples and air bubbles). We all want quiet in the background. Easiest way is to not crowd the groove and use clean vinyl and the right temp in clean presses. All the rest of your work can be trashed right there.

So where are they going to press these? Who's making the masters? Will the plating be good enough? If you can influence these elements, you stand a way better chance of getting the right sound in the end :)
 
having your album 45 rpm as opposed to 33 rpm is just going to be a personal choice. radiohead did 'hail to the thief' at 45 rpm split between two discs. at 45 minutes it will probably need to be two discs anyway.

180 gram will cost you more. 150 gram i think is plenty and will cut down production costs by almost half.

united record pressing in nashville does fine work. very easy to work with. had a record pressed earlier this year and couldn't be happier with them.

http://www.urpressing.com

good luck with your record!
 
45 is not a big deal to me in terms of playback. It will add to the cost of the product though. Personally I find it hard to justify spending over $25 after tax for an LP release no matter what it is.
 
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