Overlooked sources for DAC's?

I was wondering...

The audio coming out of my computer(s) sound card(s) are... less than inspiring. It's kind of frustrating that the best audio source I have right now is a $29 MSRP Magnavox DVD player, model MWD 200G. I have a ton of music (mp3's from all over-- old cds now gone, rapsody, iTunes, etc) that actually sound better if I (un?) rip them to an audio cd and play them on the DVD player. It works, but it's a PITA.

I guess the weak link is my sound card, whether on the MB or a SB Live! from ages ago. I know if I drop $100 I can get a better sound card, it's just that I don't happen to have $100 to spend on it, much less $100 x 5 PCs in the house. It just seems to me that there must be a bunch of units with decent converters that can be hacked into service, that are currently being overlooked much like most tube amps were back in the '70s.

Every computer CD/DVD player I've seen has a 2 channel analog audio out... I'm guessing that some of this stuff sounds pretty good-- now the question is how to get the digital signal from the PC into and out of some other DAC...

I wonder what the DAC equivalent of Fisher console tube amp is?

oneinchside said:

I was wondering...

I wonder what the DAC equivalent of Fisher console tube amp is?

Click to expand...

Now that's an excellent question that I'd love to know the answer to, too.

I've been having DAC thoughts lately, & I'd really like to find the grail: excellent & (fairly) cheap. I just don't know too much about them & what's available.

Good DAC units are out there but do take some investment. I tend to dislike Sound Blaster cards for their crummy bloated drivers alone. For cheap, either look at an Asus Xonar or a M-Audio Audiophile, as good as you can get without spending fancy money. For me, I use AudioScience cards mounted in custom built desktops built specially for audio duty.

Check out Grant Fidelity, too. They are an Ak sponsor and their Dac-09 was just on sale on their site.

KentTeffeteller said:

Good DAC units are out there but do take some investment. I tend to dislike Sound Blaster cards for their crummy bloated drivers alone. For cheap, either look at an Asus Xonar or a M-Audio Audiophile, as good as you can get without spending fancy money. For me, I use AudioScience cards mounted in custom built desktops built specially for audio duty.

Click to expand...

+1 on the Sound Blaster drivers. Right now I'm using ALSA/Jack under Ubuntu 10.4 and ALSA under XP on the living room netflix machine. I've heard that there is/was a firmware upgrade for the SB cards that made a huge difference, but I haven't found it yet.

I've been keeping my eye out for an M-Audio 24/96 PCI or USB, but haven't come across one yet. I'll add the Xonar to the list.

Are there any threads from your audio PC build ups?

Bump?

I guess the weak link is my sound card,

Click to expand...

Weak link is the MP3s...

JimJ[VT];3846723 said:

Weak link is the MP3s...

Click to expand...

Nah, my real gripe is when I play the same cd using the PC/CD as a source and then the Maggie DVD player as a source. The PC is just harsh/dead/smeary. Just not nearly as good as it could (should?) be all things considered.

The nasty mp3's that the kids have? Do I really mind if Justin Beiber doesn't image as well as it could or that it sounds flat and compressed? No.

Actually I'm kind of grateful.

The frustrating part is that when I make an exact copy, the hardware is really limiting my ability to enjoy it. I'm pretty sure that the problem lies in a very weak DAC (Sound Blaster isn't famous for it's breadth and fidelity) but right now I'm about $97 away from a new $99 sound card.

Of course it really depends on the system I run it through...
bookshelf speakers + a sub. No biggy.
The OBs with Zenith horns? Oh yeah, you can hear every oops and glitch. :sigh:

I picked up an m-audio 2496 on ebay cheap and it sounds great. Big improvement over over the sb live. And I agree with you, there's probably a great dac sitting in a beat up ugly cd player at goodwill right now.

The yamaha ddp-1 surround processor that can be found on ebay cheap, can decode pcm stereo from a coaxial or toslink signal and uses Burr Brown PCM1701 DACS. FYI

I'm not an electronics whiz so I don't know if it's doable or not but the factory
installed Dac's in the playstation 1's model # 1001 or #5501 had the most
desirable Dac. If one could somehow remove it and stream the sound from
the computer to the amp? I would be very pleased if I could get music out
of my laptop to sound like my 5501 playstation.

My personal solution is to use a Sony STR-DA2000ES. It uses Sony's implementation of the digital amplifier (S-Master Pro), so it has no internal DAC. The digital-to-analog conversion takes place right in the output stage. My digital sources are hooked up to it, and they really sound good.

My music server PC hardware is retired broadcast automation gear. Which was built for reliable 24/7/365 use serving music, liners, and commercials. I normally go this route due to my profession of broadcast engineer. I use rack mount server cabinets with redundant cooling and power supplies as a base for my builds. I use Intel processors and normally these days have over 3 TB of storage and those good AudioScience sound cards and run Windows XP Professional coupled with Adobe Audition, Sony CD Architect, and BSI WaveCart and Simian software and EAC. I also have Click Repair available when needed for cleaning up vinyl drops (used lightly) and have a Blu-Ray burner now. If I had to buy it all new, it would cost as much as a new Kia but I get enough donor hardware and software from work to cut my costs.

oneinchside said:

I was wondering...

The audio coming out of my computer(s) sound card(s) are... less than inspiring. It's kind of frustrating that the best audio source I have right now is a $29 MSRP Magnavox DVD player, model MWD 200G. I have a ton of music (mp3's from all over-- old cds now gone, rapsody, iTunes, etc) that actually sound better if I (un?) rip them to an audio cd and play them on the DVD player. It works, but it's a PITA.

I guess the weak link is my sound card, whether on the MB or a SB Live! from ages ago. I know if I drop $100 I can get a better sound card, it's just that I don't happen to have $100 to spend on it, much less $100 x 5 PCs in the house. It just seems to me that there must be a bunch of units with decent converters that can be hacked into service, that are currently being overlooked much like most tube amps were back in the '70s.

Every computer CD/DVD player I've seen has a 2 channel analog audio out... I'm guessing that some of this stuff sounds pretty good-- now the question is how to get the digital signal from the PC into and out of some other DAC...

I wonder what the DAC equivalent of Fisher console tube amp is?

Click to expand...

Actually, I'd think it would not be too hard if you dig into the player and find the point where the signal from the optical pickup and controller chip is fed to the DAC. I'd think if one could tie in at that point with an external connection to input the S/PDIF signal you'd be in business. That almost seems too simple...probably overlooking something.

Did a bit more research...yup, not quite as easy as putting in a tap to the DAC input. Need to add a S/PDIF receiver/decoder such as CS8416 then this feeds the DAC chip.

Actually doesn't look that hard. I have an old CDP I might give it a try one day...

OP, how much money do you want to spend? Will you be feeding the external DAC via USB, Optical, or Coaxial? Also what version of Windows are you using? I ask the last question because it is very hard to get bit perfect out of XP but relatively easy out of Vista.

metal420 said:

The yamaha ddp-1 surround processor that can be found on ebay cheap, can decode pcm stereo from a coaxial or toslink signal and uses Burr Brown PCM1701 DACS. FYI

Click to expand...

I have a DDP-1 and it doesn't work off a computer digital signal, it states that there is no data. It will take an AC-3 or Dolby Digital though.

hatrack71 said:

I have a DDP-1 and it doesn't work off a computer digital signal, it states that there is no data. It will take an AC-3 or Dolby Digital though.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there is allegedly a diagnostic or service mode that you can select (somehow) and the unit will then accept PCM input.

I thought someone posted a thread here on AK about doing that.

I got a big improvement in computer sound when I switched from using an internal sound card, to taking the sound directly via USB.

You might want to investigate the Trends Audio UD-10.1 unit. It's a small box that plugs into the USB out, and has a slew of outputs, including balanced XLR! It has a built-in DAC, which sounds pretty good (better than the one inside your computer), but if you power it from the USB, it isn't strong enough to power big headphones. It'll sound great on the more sensitive ones, though. You can get better sound using an external battery power supply, but it still has limitations. Where it really becomes handy, though, is that you can use any of the appropriate outputs on the back to feed an(other) external DAC, your main system's preamp, etc...

Tests --both by the company and by independent labs-- show that the device is "transparent"; it passes the signal without the usual corruption, jitter, etc... so if you use "Exact Audio Copy" software to write a CD to your hard drive, and then play it back through the UD-10.1, your DAC will be receiving an essentially "perfect" signal. It's both theoretically and empirically MUCH better than what you'd get using your computer's CD player through the internal audio card. I can vouch for the improvement from personal experience; the differences are not subtle, even if you have an "audiophile" sound card.

Another external DAC with a similar approach, and great sound, is the Cambridge Audio's DAC Magic. The DAC in it is superior to that in the Trends Audio unit, but it sticks you with that DAC, whereas the TA unit allows you to "DAC roll", trying out all your different DAC possibilities with a great signal feed. I'm using mine (battery-fed) through a Behringer 2496 unit (with isolation transformer power feed) to upscale (96), and then through the Musical Fidelity X-24K DAC (with dedicated X-PSU power supply). It sounds VERY good.

Again, the Cambridge Audio unit basically does the same thing in an all-in-one unit, with similar results in a smaller footprint, but I like the flexibility the TA unit gives. It's also perfect for travelling, when you want to be able to have great sound in a compact and portable package. Since it can even be battery-fed, it can be off-mains portable, with a battery-powered laptop.

The company is a local (Hong Kong) one, and I've met/dealt with them. At least at the local level, their customer service is exemplary. I can't speak for other, more distant markets where there may be agents involved, though.

mrarroyo said:

OP, how much money do you want to spend? Will you be feeding the external DAC via USB, Optical, or Coaxial? Also what version of Windows are you using? I ask the last question because it is very hard to get bit perfect out of XP but relatively easy out of Vista.

Click to expand...

As little as possible!

Really the point is the fun of finding something that works like $$$$$$$ for $ plus some ingenuity.

I have Coax, USB 2 and Firewire outs presently. The machines at home (mostly) are dual boot XP/Ubuntu linux or Vista/Ubuntu linux. Using ALSA or ALSA/Jack(Linux) I can get things trough software (at least in theory) cleanly, but the on board or SB Live! hardware seems to be the current limitation.