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Does recapping make an audible difference? The shoot out & you're invited

w1jim

w1jim

I can fix it but good...
Subscriber
Does recapping result in an audible difference?

I have a Pioneer SX-850 receiver that I've fully recapped with Nichicon electrolytics (excepting the 2 large PS caps) and all of the 1uf and below electrolytics have been replaced with poly film caps. All tantalums have been replaced with electrolytics as well.
I was recently given a very nice SX-850 that had a blown fuse. I've recapped the power regulator PCB but left everything else original.

The question is can we discern a sonic difference between the recapped and non-recapped receivers?

I'm going to do a shoot-out on February 12th at our New England Winter get-together. Everyone is invited.

I'm very interested to see if we can determine if there is a sonic upside to my OCCRD (Obsessive Compulsive Capacitor Replacement Disorder).
JimB


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OCCRD (Obsessive Compulsive Capacitor Replacement Disorder).
:thmbsp:

I'm interested in the results
 
IMO the answer to your question is no. However I recap nearly everything that comes into my hands for reliability which is very worthwhile.
 
Whether you and others will be able to detect an audible difference between those 2 SX-850's is one thing - who knows ?

However, in general I think re-capping makes a huge audible difference - I speak here as a veteran of 4 full re-caps :D - 5 if you include my oscilloscope - which now 'sounds' just peachy :D :smoke:

My experience suggests that - If you cannot hear a difference, you have
a). used poor replacements,
b). you are hearing challenged,
c). the old caps were not that bad in the first place.

And the audible difference may not so much be the caps themselves - but being able to reliably set the equipment to manufacturers specs in the case of Bias and offset for example.

(Retreats to underground bunker protected by 20' of reinforced concrete, flame suit on, beer in hand :beerchug: :para: :D )

Sadly, I won't be able to make it to the shoot-out to be shot down.
:D
 
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I fully admit that I believe that recapping is necessary due to the age of components, I also believe that the perceived end result is tainted by a variation of the Observer Effect.
 
Not only you can hear a difference but you can also measure it :

http://www.dcx2496.fr/2220BL/Comparaison Marantz 2220BL.htm

I measured those two Marantz 2220BL the same day, using the same procedure.

One was completely restored to new condition with quality parts (capacitors, power supply rectifiers) and the other one stayed in original condition. Have a look athe results, they speak for themselves.

P1030192.jpg
 
The condition of the unrestored SX-850 is quite impressive - there were no signs of heat damage to the power supply regulator board which makes me think this has lead a very pampered life (even though it was originally purchased as a high school graduation gift which guarantees it's been cranked).
The major degradation to the original caps would therefore be age related (IMHO).
The data on the Marantz restoration is quite impressive - gives credence to my aforementioned OCCRD.

I was thinking that set up would be critical, especially regarding the volume. My intention is to use a signal generator and a SPL meter set up on a tripod to insure that the volume levels of each receiver is the same.
BTW, the amplifier idle & bias have been set to the same values for each.

I've always felt that higher quality / modern capacitors should give superior sound and there is certainly no ignoring the fact that recapping will result in more reliable service, I'd just like to confirm this with a variety of different listeners.

BTW, while I'll be listening to these receivers individually prior to the shoot-out I will not be comparing them - just confirming that they seem to be functioning properly.
 
Thierry thank you so much for posting the graphs.
Very enlightining to see the difference.
I never doubted that capactiors wear out especially after 35 years!!!
But seeing it is very educational
 
With my 40s vintage Sparton radio it definitely made a difference. Of course it was inoperable before I did the recap. :D

mike
 
mashaffer said:
With my 40s vintage Sparton radio it definitely made a difference. Of course it was inoperable before I did the recap. :D
mike
Click to expand...
I think it's a whole different world - comparing those waxy caps from the 40's with the caps from the 70's. I want to see if there's a difference with modern caps.
 
Excellent work, w1jim. There are those who say that modern capacitors aern't as good, my experience warrants dissagreement as do the results provided by Thierry. I've recapped speakers and the sound does change in some cases too. There was one set however that performed best with the originals, but I think that's relative.
 
I had Ecowars completely re-cap a SX-950, including the two main caps. He found that one of the power transistors was not working. He thought since nothing else was blown that it may have always been that way. He replaced it with a transistor from a Marantz. Yes, it still has Marantz printed on it.

I had been using the Pioneer off and on for a year or so after finding it at a thrift. I never heard any problem with it. I only took it to EC because I always wanted a SX-950 and decided I wanted a restored example. I have used almost daily for the last 4-5 years. I think it and the 850 are among the best buys in vintage receivers.

Point is, it sounded great with a blown transistor!
 
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A single uncontrolled attempt to confirm or deny the audibility of differences among electrolytic capacitors, whatever the result, will be strictly anecdotal. That's fine, as far as it goes, but it's disappointing to see a good opportunity for correlation with measurement go down the drain.
 
Interesting to be sure.I'll be looking forward to the results.By the way those Pioneers look really good.
 
Hyperion said:
Whether you and others will be able to detect an audible difference between those 2 SX-850's is one thing - who knows ?

However, in general I think re-capping makes a huge audible difference - I speak here as a veteran of 4 full re-caps :D - 5 if you include my oscilloscope - which now 'sounds' just peachy :D :smoke:

My experience suggests that - If you cannot hear a difference, you have
a). used poor replacements,
b). you are hearing challenged,
c). the old caps were not that bad in the first place.
Click to expand...

I think c) will be the most important point. Either way it will be a fun thing to try!:D
 
Be honest now... you've already done a little un-official comparison and know which one you believe sounds better, right? :D


Whether a recap will make a sonic difference depends overwhelmingly on what condition the old caps are in, to begin with; that is, how much deterioration-from-new has occurred. Most of the time, with 20+-year-old caps, it will make a significantly audible difference... but with a well-preserved example, less so. Some caps age better than others.

I belong to the camp that says it's better to recap than not, since all electrolytics gradually dry out and change (for the worse) sonically over time. Carbon resistors get noisier over time, too, so I usually change those. Solder joints deteriorate, too, so re-flow those. I'd rather take time to do everything at once, and do it right the first time, than to have to repeatedly open up a case and do more work, then yet more, then again more, etc... as a series of old components I didn't bother to replace decide to give up the ghost, one after another.
 
BinaryMike said:
A single uncontrolled attempt to confirm or deny the audibility of differences among electrolytic capacitors, whatever the result, will be strictly anecdotal. That's fine, as far as it goes, but it's disappointing to see a good opportunity for correlation with measurement go down the drain.
Click to expand...
There is no denying that this will not be "the" defining test to determine that worthiness of recapping for sonic purposes.
And, it's not like I'll be burning or selling one of these units after this exercise so the opportunity will continue to exist and if anyone has the test equipment I'd be very happy to have them document for us.
Arkay said:
Be honest now... you've already done a little un-official comparison and know which one you believe sounds better, right? :D
Click to expand...
Nope, I want to believe the recapped one will sound better and I certainly have pride in the work I performed to make it a "better" unit but I honestly don't know if the difference will be discernible to my aging ears or those of the other attendees.

Arkay, if you want to hop a jet I'd be more then happy to pick you up at the Boston (or Worcester for that matter) airport.
JimB
 
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