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Modded 640P Giant Killer Phono Stage?

HypnoToad

RIP Ms Puss Puss
Subscriber
As you all know (you would have to have been living under a rock not to know :D) I have been upgrading and experimenting with the Cambridge Audio 640P, a decent phono stage out of the box.

Here is a review and synopsis of the mods / upgrades.

1. All electrolytic caps were replaced with Panasonic FC's and SU's for the bipolars.
2. Op amps removed and op amp sockets installed.
3. Polystyrene caps installed in place of ceramic bypass caps on the op amps.
4. The two 220pf input caps removed completely.
5. Optionally input resistors changed to adjust impedance to the cart for best performance.

When I initially tried the stock unit in my system is sound alright but very laid back and two dimensional, it was easy to listen to but didn't set the world on fire. It was easily beat out by my Pro-Ject Tube Box II.

I modded mine and then Jim Reeves sent me his for the same mods. He has been a second set of ears and you know that it's easy to get carried away and subconsciously exaggerate the improvements on something you are working on. And I can't thank him enough for his work in testing out different op amp combination's, we have finally settled on one that seems to be a clear winner.

The upgraded unit needs a little while to break in, I leave it on all the time and it takes a couple of weeks to hit it's straps. It seems to get smoother over that time.

To give an idea of the difference in sound between the stock unit I would describe it as this. Imagine a group of musicians huddled together, shoulder to shoulder, they start playing and the sound seems to be all joined together coming from one spot. Then you tell them to move apart not only side to side but front to back. They move apart a little bit but you tell them keep going until they are all where they are supposed to be. All of a sudden you can hear the guitar clearly from it's spot then the drummer from it's spot, the drummer is not only in a different spot side to side but is behind the guitar as well. You now have a wide sound stage and a deep one as well. You can easily pick out the different positions of the musicians. Also the clarity and detail is unbelievable, I hear things on the records that I hadn't noticed before, probably because they were all smeared together. It's like all the layers of the music have been separated so you can hear them all clearly. The bass is deep but not flabby one note bass, you can hear the different drums and bass guitar notes. I was listening to The Wall by Pink Floyd yesterday and when they sing "Is there anybody out there", it's like being in a 3d movie where the voices get closer and closer to you. I started thinking I am going to need a bigger room. I find myself not only listening but pointing my head in the direction of one particular instrument now something I couldn't do before, and you don't get graininess or harshness anymore.

I told Jim he has backed a winner with his selection of op amps using the AD823 in the input stages and the LM4562 in the output stages. This is a match made in heaven, using all LM4562's was very very good but just had a little dryness to it. With the AD823 mixed in it extends the bass and really smooths everything out.

If anyone had told me before I started this little project it would improve to the point that it's at and I would sell my Pro-Ject Tube Box II because of it, I would have laughed, it's that good.

And with op amp sockets installed as Jim and I found out op amp rolling is cheap and a lot of fun.


Stock unit:
003-5.jpg


Upgraded unit:
Jim640P.jpg
 
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Wow! Excellent descriptions. A high value phono stage is on my short list of things to do. I am glad to hear that the Cambridge gave the Tube Box a run for it's money. I sold mine and regret it terribly. I don't want to spend $600 for a new one. Thanks for sharing this most useful information.

Incidentally, I recommend upgrading the caps to Silmics and Nichicon Muse Bipolar. I'm not crazy about the SU line. I use a lot of FC and FM caps, but have found the Silmics to perform substantially better, so I use those when I can find one that fits.
 
Wow! Excellent descriptions. A high value phono stage is on my short list of things to do. I am glad to hear that the Cambridge gave the Tube Box a run for it's money. I sold mine and regret it terribly. I don't want to spend $600 for a new one. Thanks for sharing this most useful information.

Incidentally, I recommend upgrading the caps to Silmics and Nichicon Muse Bipolar. I'm not crazy about the SU line. I use a lot of FC and FM caps, but have found the Silmics to perform substantially better, so I use those when I can find one that fits.

Thanks for your positive comments.

I was going to use Elna Simlic II at the start but had a problem.

The cap on the left is the same value as the four black covered ones on the right of it, there was no way I would fit them in. Also the Simlic's don't come in bi-polar, not sure about the Nichicon Muse I will have to look into that.

004.jpg


I recommend to anyone that can handle the lead free solder to upgrade theirs, they won't be sorry.
 
Ah, I see the problem. There is a bipolar Muse line available at Handmade Electronics. They are not particularly large like the Silmics.
 
I was also thinking maybe with the help of some of the electronic wizz's on here we could develop our own no holds barred phono stage.

With case, PCB boards and parts list and costing around $200.00, using top quality components.

Just a thought.:scratch2:
 
hey HypnoToad , mucho interested . finally getting back into audio in the past year . so much has changed since the '70's ;)

new denon 103r and a CA 640p on the way . many choices but decided on the 640p because of the documented mods available .

cheers Woody
 
I was also thinking maybe with the help of some of the electronic wizz's on here we could develop our own no holds barred phono stage.

With case, PCB boards and parts list and costing around $200.00, using top quality components.

Just a thought.:scratch2:

I would be very much into that. Don't have the smarts to contribute to the design though. Would build one though.
 
Ditto!

Great info,thanks for the sharing.

I modded my AT PEQ3 after reading the first post. New Op amp and caps and it sounds much better with a LOT more detail. Not up to the 640 standards but I am happy at a total outlay of ~ $60.

Thanks for the inspiration! :thmbsp:
 
I would be very much into that. Don't have the smarts to contribute to the design though. Would build one though.

I found this, it's probably been brought up before but seems like it's very good.

http://passdiy.com/pdf/PEARL%202.pdf

The PCB's are very expensive ($200.00 for a stereo pair) but some nice person may be able to make them cheaply for us?

If anyone else has some ideas or schematics?
 
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I received my HypnoToad upgraded 640P. One word: WOW! I am simply floored. Jaw dropping amazed. The sound comparison from before the mods...hmmm...let's see. I guess I can say that the best anolgy is akin to a picture that was not quite in focus but just got zeroed in to as sharp of a focus as you have ever seen. Every note, whether vocals or instruments, seem sharper and better defined with a new "sweetness" of tone. Phillip, what the hell did you do to this thing??!! I was listening to Supertramp-Cannonball and heard things I had simply not heard before. I am listening to Pure Prairie League-Jazzman as we speak and the song sounds as good as I have ever heard it anywhere. I can only wonder how much better this gets as it burns in. Toad must have replaced every damn thing in it because he sent me a bag full of the old stuff. I guess I have to ask, "What didn't you replace"? This all coincides with the work I did on my SL1200. I replaced the feet with Isonoe footers and the tonearm with a Sumiko FT-3 with Litz wiring. I thought that was a huge moneymaker until I got this back in the mail. Now my turntable is screaming for a big buck cart.

Thanks, Phillip and GREAT work!!
 
I received my HypnoToad upgraded 640P. One word: WOW! I am simply floored. Jaw dropping amazed. The sound comparison from before the mods...hmmm...let's see. I guess I can say that the best anolgy is akin to a picture that was not quite in focus but just got zeroed in to as sharp of a focus as you have ever seen. Every note, whether vocals or instruments, seem sharper and better defined with a new "sweetness" of tone. Phillip, what the hell did you do to this thing??!! I was listening to Supertramp-Cannonball and heard things I had simply not heard before. I am listening to Pure Prairie League-Jazzman as we speak and the song sounds as good as I have ever heard it anywhere. I can only wonder how much better this gets as it burns in. Toad must have replaced every damn thing in it because he sent me a bag full of the old stuff. I guess I have to ask, "What didn't you replace"? This all coincides with the work I did on my SL1200. I replaced the feet with Isonoe footers and the tonearm with a Sumiko FT-3 with Litz wiring. I thought that was a huge moneymaker until I got this back in the mail. Now my turntable is screaming for a big buck cart.

Thanks, Phillip and GREAT work!!

Glad you like it Mark, and it's good to know it arrived safely, just one question though are you going to do a shoot out between it and the DB-8?

Either way it would be good to know how it stacks up.
 
Glad you like it Mark, and it's good to know it arrived safely, just one question though are you going to do a shoot out between it and the DB-8?

Either way it would be good to know how it stacks up.

Yes, I will do a shootout, but I can already tell you the result. Before, the DB-8 just nudged out the stock 640p. It was a little better. Now, the modded 640p is MUCH better. And it isn't even burned in yet.

We need to put it up against more costly competition to see how it fares. This is not a budget phono preamp anymore!
 
I found this, it's probably been brought up before but seems like it's very good.

http://passdiy.com/pdf/PEARL%202.pdf

The PCB's are very expensive ($200.00 for a stereo pair) but some nice person may be able to make them cheaply for us?

If anyone else has some ideas or schematics?

I'm sure anything from Nelson Pass would be a great way to go. If I had the money I'd be on board, with assembly at least, but I don't right now.
 
I got my 640P back after being Toaded, and I can say without a doubt it has more going for it than the DB8 with the upgraded power supply. At least with the Denon DL103r that is! Minimal Burn in and this thing is impressive, and the DB8 is no slouch. I have not opened the hood, but I'm sure the work is top notch. BTW Thanks for the fast turn around.
Regards,
Jim
 
I got my 640P back after being Toaded, and I can say without a doubt it has more going for it than the DB8 with the upgraded power supply. At least with the Denon DL103r that is! Minimal Burn in and this thing is impressive, and the DB8 is no slouch. I have not opened the hood, but I'm sure the work is top notch. BTW Thanks for the fast turn around.
Regards,
Jim

Be careful if you open it up, the new hamster might get out.:D
 
I got another 640P delivered today to upgrade for a fellow AK'er, I always test them first to make sure nothing got damaged in transit.

I put on James Taylor in my bedroom system and it sounded like he and his band were in the other room, it sounded distant. I plugged in my original modded 640P and played the same track, he was not only in the room but right at the end of my bed. Lucky I was dressed.:D
 
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Been enjoying the AD797 in the MC stage all week. Very refined sound! Of course, not to leave well-enough alone, I been snooping several other alternatives at Digikey.

Now, we got lucky with the AD823 and so far no puffs of smoke from the AD797, but I'm not hesitant to admit this is dumb luck and googling for other's results.

The point is I've come accross a couple of other Analog Devices chips that look interesting, the AD746 and the AD712, both dual JFETs, but the specs are a real mystery to me. What determines where the magic comes from? What is essential to avoid disaster?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD746JNZ-ND
The AD746 caught my eye for its high slew rate and fast settling time.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD712JNZ-ND
The AD712 seems to behave more like the AD823, may be a safer bet.

Sorry for another thread-crap Hypno, seems like the best place to ask.
 
Been enjoying the AD797 in the MC stage all week. Very refined sound! Of course, not to leave well-enough alone, I been snooping several other alternatives at Digikey.

Now, we got lucky with the AD823 and so far no puffs of smoke from the AD797, but I'm not hesitant to admit this is dumb luck and googling for other's results.

The point is I've come accross a couple of other Analog Devices chips that look interesting, the AD746 and the AD712, both dual JFETs, but the specs are a real mystery to me. What determines where the magic comes from? What is essential to avoid disaster?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD746JNZ-ND
The AD746 caught my eye for its high slew rate and fast settling time.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD712JNZ-ND
The AD712 seems to behave more like the AD823, may be a safer bet.

Sorry for another thread-crap Hypno, seems like the best place to ask.

I subscribe to the saying, "If it aint broke fix it till it is".:D

The only thing you can blow up is the op amp itself by putting it in back to front, at worst it will oscillate and not be good for the 640P. But trial and error seems to be the way to go. I don't think you can tell a lot by the specs. The bottom line is that I just don't think you can tell by looking.

How about OPA2017, some prefer it over the OPA627.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=296-19953-5-ND

As for the AD712.

AD712 review: "A "Very" revealing chip, similar to the AD823 but rougher around the edges. I don't know if the roughness was on the actual recording or if it was attributable to the AD712 but I found this chip gave out "way" too much information for my liking. It is analytical to the point that certain pieces of music can become impossible to listen to, especially bad recordings, it reproduces every last detail / imperfection with microscopic accuracy which, at times, can be detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the music. For those that love a warts and all insight into the music then this is the star of the show but it may not be to everyones liking.

http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/opamp.htm
 
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