Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out

[patfont]

Post #527 is my final parts list for the 2220B refurb.

If you do not feel like going through 20+ pages here is a list were the results are:


Post numbers: 18, 24, 35, 36, 40, 90, 163, 170, 221, 263, 276, 278, 282, 305, 320, 323.

Ok, I have been wanting to do this for a while, and have finally gotten around to it. I will be replacing the caps in my other Marantz 2220B, P/S board. I have on order the following:

Panasonic FC- the old stand by
Elna Silmic II-Seems to be the favorite but we will see
Elna Cerafine-Said to sound very close to Black Gates, got my interest
Nichicon KZ- Could be the sleeper here

Will rate each set of installed caps in 7 areas:

Bass
Midrange
Treble
Are they smooth and tube like or to the solid state side
Sound Stage: width and depth
Low level/inner detail
Rhythm and drive

Will probably get my order from Digi-Key first so probably the FC and Silmic getting here 1st.

Will update as things progress, want to get to the bottom of which really is the best sounding capacitor for the Classic Marantz Receivers.

[ccheath]

[Jailtime]

Been using FC for a long time. About to try Silmic II in a couple projects though. Looking forward to your conclusions.

[harleyrider]

Me too i have a 2250B i want to get into soon .................

[robbe_15]

Will follow this thread.
i'm using pana FC for power supply and Elna Silmic II for pre and phono board.
Next to workn on: 2235 B and 2240.
Done see http://s1086.photobucket.com/albums/...arantz%201060/

Never made a shoot out so I'm very interested

[mech986]

[anderslober]

I use Panasonic FC/FM.........Silmic's are great too.

[patfont]

The FC's have been installed and are running now to let them break in a little before I do any serious listening.

P/S Board ready:



The Panasonic FC Caps:




Installed:




Why the heck am I doing this anyway? Well I got a 1070 from the famous XYZ Marantz rebuilder, and I emailed him to let him know I was not really happy with the sound. The high end sounded etched, and there was no extreme foundational low end. He said that I was the first person out of 300+ who has had a concern. So I replaced the Phono Board with Silmic II and it helped a bit in smoothing out the high end but it was still not ok to me, and low end was unchanged. So I replaced the P/S Caps with Silmic II-"Bingo." High end nice and smooth low end reaches now to the subterranean level. P/S board caps can make a huge difference.

So here we have it, first up Panasonic FC caps.

After a real quick listen I can see why they are the de-facto standard Marantz replacement caps. They are very flat and accurate and really do nothing wrong. After a bit of a break in I will report on their performance in the 7 areas I mentioned earlier in another post.

[dumptruck]

You're only doing power supply caps? I will have a really hard time believing you hear any differences between brands there, but kudos for writing up your test nonetheless. Planning on doing anything in the signal path?

[patfont]

Originally Posted by dumptruck

You're only doing power supply caps? I will have a really hard time believing you hear any differences between brands there, but kudos for writing up your test nonetheless. Planning on doing anything in the signal path?

Hi thanks for your interest in this shoot out. When I recap board by board, it goes something like this. P/S caps 75% difference in sound, phono 5%, Pre 10% Amp 10%. So makes sense to shoot out these caps on the P/S board, yes the difference is obvious, please stay tuned. My other Marantz units are all totally recapped so yes I will eventually do that. My 1070 has 1% metal film resistors in the preamp, bypass caps on the P/S Board and Main Amp board and metal polyester foil caps at audio coupling locations. Also foil coupling caps preamp, and Pi filter setup for the main rails.

[dumptruck]

Well, I agree fresh PS caps tend to make a big difference, but that just implies they need replacing the most, not that changes between two new caps of the same value and rating will make a big difference. Anyway, .

[roger2]

For power supply you should try Panasonic FM. It has lower ESR than the Panasonic FC and most likely lower than the others in your list.

my .02c

carry on, interesting thread

[patfont]

Red Norvo Quintet:The Forward Look Reference Recordings **Sound Stage , rythem.
Roxy Music: Avalon **Sound Stage
The Sheffield Drum Record: Jim Keltner Side ** Bass, Low level detail, highs
Cat Stevens: Tea for the Tillerman MFSL OMR ** Midrange, Bass
Gino Vannelli: Powerful People MFSL OMR ** Rythem and Drive, highs
Joni Mitchell: Wild Things Run Fast ** Midrange, Tube or solid state sound, vocals

Sade: Diamond Life **Imaging and sound stage , midrange, vocals
E.T. Soundtrack: (The song Abandoned and Pursued) The low end is amazing, comes at you from under the floor and travels up your legs, cool! ** Lowest bass octave
Dire Straights: Love over Gold ** Low level detail, tube or solid state sound
Elvis Costello: Imperial Bedroom ** Midrange, vocals
Dafos: Reference Recordings, song "The Gates of Dafos" The monster drum on stage falls over and it is on the recording-scary. ** Bass
Gino Vannelli: Storm at Sunup Midrange, sound stage, vocals, highs

[PB_Audio]

Originally Posted by dumptruck

Well, I agree fresh PS caps tend to make a big difference, but that just implies they need replacing the most, not that changes between two new caps of the same value and rating will make a big difference. Anyway, .

Would you say that the P/S caps tend to be in greater need of replacing, on these older receivers, than the other boards?
If so, I guess the older 2245 & 2270 would benefit even more by a P/S recap, not to mention the Model 18 &19, right?

[Jailtime]

Originally Posted by patfont

Hi thanks for your interest in this shoot out. When I recap board by board, it goes something like this. P/S caps 75% difference in sound, phono 5%, Pre 10% Amp 10%. So makes sense to shoot out these caps on the P/S board, yes the difference is obvious, please stay tuned.

I think dumptruck is right here. Considering that the original PS caps are well baked and out of spec, you will notice a difference with quality new caps, since the PS feeds your tuner and tone sections.

But given an amp with a restored power supply, I'd bet you would notice more difference between cap brands by "rolling" caps in the tone amp.

Still looking forward to your conclusions though. And I like FCs, they're nice to look at.

Originally Posted by PB_Audio

Would you say that the P/S caps tend to be in greater need of replacing, on these older receivers, than the other boards?
If so, I guess the older 2245 & 2270 would benefit even more by a P/S recap, not to mention the Model 18 &19, right?

PS caps are generally exposed to the greatest amount of heat. You will often see their wraps shrunken down below the top of the cap. Often, it's a good idea to replace diodes and transistors on a power supply board. Some Marantz (see 2275) benefit from modifying the location of the resistors. There's a big 5W on the 2275 that needs to be raised off the board.