USB, FLAC and CD Quality

wtaylorbasil

Active Member
Hi all,
1. I am ripping CDs to FLAC and saving on 1TB external HD.
2. I bought Onkyo TXNR609 AV Receiver because it has USB input and plays FLAC.
3. On test, the FLAC did not live up to the SQ of the original CD played on Cambridge Audio 650BD through the same receiver.
4. What could be the cause of the difference in SQ?
5. What set up change will be required so the FLAC will sound the same as the CD? (FLAC lossless should not lose any quality).
Any suggestions ?
Regards
 
What input did you have the 650BD connected to? The Onkyo can play FLAC files right off the HDD? That's kinda neat.
 
My DAC has severe limitations imposed on the USB inputs, like 16/32~48, so basically CD quality...nowhere near 24/196 or whatever. You might see if you can input through a digital coax, or if your Onkyo has limitations on the USB input. But getting away from USB for hi-res might help.
 
But getting away from USB for hi-res might help.
Might or might not. I would expect there are situations where a device can either do a really good job of receiving and using the asynchronous USB data, or a terrible job of doing clock recovery / jitter rejection from a mediocre SPDIF sender.

For all we know here, the OP is using the analog outputs of the CDP and the whole thing is moot.

edit: P.S. we are talking about CDs here, not 24/96.
 
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Hi,
Dumptruck >> What input did you have the 650BD connected to? The Onkyo can play FLAC files right off the HDD? That's kinda neat.
Me:650Bd is connected to Onkyo via HDMI 1.3 cable. It is neat that the HDD can be scrolled (OSD) to the tracks and played. My disappointment is that it plays up to 96/24 but not 192/24 which is becoming available for download. I saw the USB to be a convenient way of listening to CD quality music but now I am not so sure.

Jeffery>> My DAC has severe limitations imposed on the USB inputs, like 16/32~48, so basically CD quality...nowhere near 24/196 or whatever. You might see if you can input through a digital coax, or if your Onkyo has limitations on the USB input. But getting away from USB for hi-res might help.
Me:What equipment has the USB input? Elsewhere USB interface has been muted to have clock issues. So how can I now get around this issue? Please see my dream at the end.

Dumptruck>> Might or might not. I would expect there are situations where a device can either do a really good job of receiving and using the asynchronous USB data, or a terrible job of doing clock recovery / jitter rejection from a mediocre SPDIF sender.
Me:My IT/electronics knowledge is not up to scratch. My HDD is Seagate Black Armour. Is it asynchronous USB? Again I have read that to avoid clock/jitter USB should be asynchronous.
My dream:
1.Play all CD & Vinyl converted FLAC equal in SQ to CD (at least 44.1/16 resolution)
2.Be able to do this from my armchair. To this end I have a database (Collectorz) to catalogue all CDs and Vinyls with links to the relevant FLAC files. I do not want the PC to be near my HT/HiFi system in the living room. How can I achieve this? (assuming at this point a reasonable budget- I have seen DACs in the 2-4K$-way beyond my reach).
Depending on the responses, I may need to give a greater detail of my set-up.
Regards
 
Okay, well someone should be able to figure out what's responsible for the difference, but it could get pretty complicated. Here's some things you could start with:

1. Did you rip the files to FLAC at normal CD resolution? There is not reason to try to get higher at the point where you rip the files and there's a slight chance it will make things more difficult for you here - you just want the bits that are on the CD.

2. Are you able to connect a laptop to the receiver with standard USB audio (so the receiver just plays every sound your operating system would normally be playing on the speakers / sound outputs? Check your manual. Compare lossless FLAC to CD that way and see what you get.

3. I did not really check out your CD player, but if it has ANY sort of fancy upsampling, smoothing, enhancement stuff going on that you can turn off, then turn it off.

As for your dream number two... Squeezebox? You can get a used classic and hook it up to the digital input of your receiver (probably worth trying the analog for comparison just in case though). That wouldn't be a whole lot of dough.
 
You may want to check your DSP modes on your receiver. Sometimes they default to modes that do not sound all that great. I would see if there is a stereo mode and try that.
 
Sometimes they default to modes that do not sound all that great. I would see if there is a stereo mode and try that.
Reply With Quote

+1

I have a rather nice Home Theater preamp by Parasound, but the 5.1 mode simply doesn't sound as good as stereo.

I haven't figured out why, but I notice lots of people here saying pretty much the same thing.

It's not the power amps, because I have five identical channels of power amp.
 
It's possible to have a client PC for playing files that's built on a machine that uses a low power processor and doesn't require a fan (Intel Atom). It doesn't even have to have an optical drive, and if you have a TV that can be your monitor. You can keep all of your flac files on a server somewhere else. That gives you a whole computer as a front end, instead of just a gizmo like Squeezebox, which might be interesting to you. I do this and listen to all my music through either Foobar or Subsonic. It's also fun to be able to have internet access while you listen. I'm actually typing this message on my TV as I listen to Spoon. If you desire simplicity, the Squeezebox is very nice. It doesn't take up much room and it works just like you think it would.

If you're feeding the bits into the same DAC and system, then a file on a disk should sound at least as good, if not better, than most any transport because it should be more accurate. Internal computer hard disk controllers and network cards stream data much faster and have very advanced error-checking, which a CD transport just can't provide. It might be the receiver doesn't have the same abilities when reading an external drive.
 
So... you have a SPDIF cable running from your chair to your stereo, then?
No, I have a wireless keyboard. The client computer is hidden inside a console, not far from the DAC. It uses my TV as a monitor, so I can internet and control Foobar from the comfort of the couch.

IOGEAR-Wireless-Multimedia-Keyboard.jpg
 
Hi guys,
Thanks for the responses. I am still working out how I may use Squeezebox Duo with my system but my understanding of the practical connection is very hazy.
RevMen post #11, says he uses foobar to playback. I have flac files on my EHD and connected to the Receiver via the USB port, the tracks play. So what player is involved in this case? Its a bit confusing. I have Foobar but only use it to check the DR (Dynamic Range) of my cds.
Keep throwing ideas and I will persevere.
 
RevMen post #11, says he uses foobar to playback. I have flac files on my EHD and connected to the Receiver via the USB port, the tracks play. So what player is involved in this case?
That's a good question! The player software is inside your receiver, somewhere, somehow.

No, I have a wireless keyboard.
Ha, of course! I like it. Now I kind of wish I had a big TV near where I listen to music.
 
If your receiver is reading from an external hard drive and playing the files, then the quality of your playback is limited to the ability of your receiver to:

-read files: how good is the error correction, if it even has it?
-play files: it needs a processor to decode .flac, .mp3, etc, does it do this bit-perfect?
-convert digital to analog: is the internal DAC as good as your CD player's DAC? Is it as good as a relatively inexpensive add-on like the V-DAC or DAC Magic?

I don't know anything about that receiver, but you might be expecting too much of it.
 
If your receiver is reading from an external hard drive and playing the files, then the quality of your playback is limited to the ability of your receiver to:

-read files: how good is the error correction, if it even has it?
-play files: it needs a processor to decode .flac, .mp3, etc, does it do this bit-perfect?
-convert digital to analog: is the internal DAC as good as your CD player's DAC? Is it as good as a relatively inexpensive add-on like the V-DAC or DAC Magic?

I don't know anything about that receiver, but you might be expecting too much of it.

Your response rings true with a statement from another Forum that the TXNR609 could be struggling to decode the incoming signal faithfully. I have not read a comprehensive review of the receiver. Would you (or any other member) be able to determine the ability of the receiver by examining the specification on the links I am providing?

1. http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/7564
2. http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/onkyo/txnr609/onky-txnr609-blk
 
-convert digital to analog: is the internal DAC as good as your CD player's DAC? Is it as good as a relatively inexpensive add-on like the V-DAC or DAC Magic.
The OP has been using the Receiver DAC for CD as well, so that one's out (your other points are very much in, though). Jitter seems unlikely to be a real issue here. It almost has to be something about the decoding if there's a significant difference in the sound, OR an EQ/processing related thing.

There is a firmware update from July 17 on Onkyo's website (have to type in model as "TX-NR609" - doesn't come up without the hyphen :rolleyes:). One of the fixes is "Reduces noise during playback from iPod/iPhone via USB port". That could be relevant.

I took a look at the manual, but don't see any specifics about the decoding. There's a lot of stuff going on in there! A few things I saw:

- The "Source Setup" menu has settings for each input, so you'd want to see what the settings are when CD is selected, and then check them again when the USB is selected.

- "Listening Mode Preset" has a whole bunch of things that could cause trouble, because it looks like it has settings specific to both inputs and input types. A whole lot of these settings could apply to your FLAC files.

- what does it say when you are playing the FLAC files and press display to cycle through the info about the source?

- is the "music optimizer" for compressed files turned on?
 
The OP has been using the Receiver DAC for CD as well, so that one's out (your other points are very much in, though). Jitter seems unlikely to be a real issue here. It almost has to be something about the decoding if there's a significant difference in the sound, OR an EQ/processing related thing.

There is a firmware update from July 17 on Onkyo's website (have to type in model as "TX-NR609" - doesn't come up without the hyphen :rolleyes:). One of the fixes is "Reduces noise during playback from iPod/iPhone via USB port". That could be relevant.

I took a look at the manual, but don't see any specifics about the decoding. There's a lot of stuff going on in there! A few things I saw:

- The "Source Setup" menu has settings for each input, so you'd want to see what the settings are when CD is selected, and then check them again when the USB is selected.

- "Listening Mode Preset" has a whole bunch of things that could cause trouble, because it looks like it has settings specific to both inputs and input types. A whole lot of these settings could apply to your FLAC files.

- what does it say when you are playing the FLAC files and press display to cycle through the info about the source?
>> FLAC played shows 705Kbps 44.1/16. Other ripped tracks of the same CD show 749Kbps, 705, 926 ...Have I not set the dbPoweramp correctly for ripping? The same CD track displays PCM 44.1. Downloaded 88.2/24 FLAC display 2822kbps, 2734... and 96/24 display 2784Kbps, 2784... How can I compare the CD PCM 44.1 to the FLAC 705Kbps for quality check?

- is the "music optimizer" for compressed files turned on?
>> Could not find "music optimizer"
For other remarks, I have no responses.
 
44.1/16 is correct for a CD rip. The bitrate varies depending on how much compression was possible for that track, but that looks right.

For the other stuff, read your manual like I did ;).
 
The OP has been using the Receiver DAC for CD as well, so that one's out (your other points are very much in, though). Jitter seems unlikely to be a real issue here. It almost has to be something about the decoding if there's a significant difference in the sound, OR an EQ/processing related thing.
>>I was told elswhere that the CA650BD uses its internal DAC, then sends the output to the Receiver<<
 
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