Tannoys, SET tubes and Altec 604s

Thought I’d start a thread to detail my experience with 15” Tannoy Dual Concentrics - specifically 3836 drivers - sold to me in EV Aristrocrat cabinets by Cableguy. Aside from the great experience of buying and picking up stuff from Bill (highly recommended) I was very fortunate to grab these at a good price right here in Bartertown.

I've heard Tannoys a bunch of times now; at the AKfests, various audio shows, at Classic Audio and most surprisingly, as PA speakers in a local dive bar, and I've always liked their sound. I believe some of the Tannoy systems I’ve like the best - System 15 DMT II, CPA15 (in that bar) and even the Churchills - use the 3836 driver or a derivative of it. I don’t know all my Tannoy history yet and have a lot to learn but figured these drivers would be a great place to start if I want to see how far I can go with them in my system.



My first taste was to simply hook them up, on the floor and give them a little run where nothing changed but the speakers. There was some if the good stuff I remembered there but I felt the driver centers where too low and 2A3 power (3.5wpc) was just not cutting it with these. I put them up on stands (borrowed from my DQ10s) and pulled my old 300B amp (6wpc) out of storage figuring more power might be better. The best I've heard Tannoys was with even more powerful 845 SETs but 300B is the most I have available right now, short of switching to SS.

Much better with 300B; after dialing in a little feeback on the amp, I found these had pretty nice bass, actually enough to start something rattling pretty bad inside one of Aristrocrat cabinets on bass-heavy recordings. The extra height helped too with the image gaining some some size and space. Imaging is something where I've always felt Tannoy dual-concentric and Altec 604s had it all over other horn-based speakers in smaller listening rooms and these confirmed that for me again.

The rattle turned out to be loose crossover mounting screws but it's still there at high-volumes (maybe the thin aluminum resistor mounting bracket) and these cabinets do some pretty significant vibrating on their own. I'm going to try getting the crossovers out of the cabinets but I feel these drivers have some serious bass potential and that probably means getting them into different enclosures.

So far, I'm liking them OK but feel I'm going to have to work on them to get comfortable with them. There is a nagging sense of 'opaque' coloring to the sound – kind of like a thin blanket is thrown over them – that is getting in the way of the music for me. Maybe it's the switch from 2A3 to 300B so next up I'm going to go back-and-forth to the Altecs using the 300B amp to see what's up.

My Tannoys never totally captured me...The only ones that did where the DMT-15's I heard at Akfest driven by some tube amps by ??..Tubino might remember.

Dont you have any big ass cabinets where you can mount the drivers in?

The DMTs I liked so much at the AKfests where Rick's (Tubino) - 845 SETs.

Bill and I built those in my garage. If I had the money, they wouldn't be in your house

I thought they were one of the best speakers I've ever heard.....with a 30wpc PP amp

Nice!


Your right, Bill. The 3836 was used in the CPA series Tannoys. Something like a Altec 604 is definitely going to present the music differently than any of the dual concentric Tannoys, regardless of old or later versions. I'm not sure if that's what you are experiencing here or not. It will be interesting to hear how amplification or cab changes effect the "opaque" veiling you are referring to.

My Gold's and HPD 385's had significantly different personalities with similar amplification. I would think that the 3836 would also.


RC

Interesting thread, Bill, looking forward to more.

Tried some A/B comparos with the Altecs and it's not the 300B/2A3 switch; the Altecs are just better to me and I forgot how good they sound with a more powerful 300B amp.

First to admit here though – this is NOT a fair fight. The Tannoys probably need a different amp, different cabinets, maybe crossover tweaking, possibly a whole host of things because this system has been optimized over the years for the 604s and they appear to be a completely different animal.

In this system and room, the Altecs go a little deeper with better control, have better dynamics, more top-end extension and that spooky kind of immediacy and clarity (an Altec thing?) that helps spin the illusion of real music so well. Imaging seems about the same but it's hard to compare without positioning the 2 in the same spot after a switch – not something I want to do just yet.

A bunch of things I need to try with these but I'll try getting the crossovers out the boxes first to maybe cure the bass-buzz. These drivers model well in the 9ft3 cabinets I have the Altecs in but they need different port tuning; I'd have to consider some pretty major surgery to try them in those boxes though, and do I really want to mess with the Altecs?...

I'll do some more listening because there is some things they do so right for me and it might be good to get some more ears (and amp choices?) in here for a listen - I might just be too much of an Altec 604 fan to hear the Tannoys.

Fun stuff and more to come.

Always been curious about Tannoys but never heard a pair.

Trust your ears Billfort.They know darn well what reality sounds like.

They hear it every day. :scratch2: :yes:

Choose a recording that has lots of revealing low level detail.The speaker which obscure less of the low level detail is the better one.If that's not the Altec,then so be it.That's the true test.

Two very nice speakers to be comparing. :thmbsp:

Man, I need to beg, borrow or steal the Churchill Wideband crossover schematic from somebody at Tannoy. With that crossover, the supertweeter, and the appropriate cabinet dimensions... :drool:

To date, the Churchill Wideband is in the top-5 speakers I've ever heard, at any price, from any manufacturer. Only the newer Tannoy Kingdom Royale beats it significantly (and it's TWICE the price)...

Regards,
Gordon.

Billfort said:

...
In this system and room, the Altecs go a little deeper with better control, have better dynamics, more top-end extension and that spooky kind of immediacy and clarity (an Altec thing?) that helps spin the illusion of real music so well. Imaging seems about the same but it's hard to compare without positioning the 2 in the same spot after a switch – not something I want to do just yet...

Click to expand...

Needless to say I've been watching this thread with a wary eye

Refresh my memory - what are you using for crossovers with your Duplexes? I get that spooky immediacy with the 604Es and the MasteringLabs XOs, too... but I do think that some of it is "just" the good ol' Altec midrange hump. Sure is satisfying, though.

My ears-on time with Tannoy coaxes is, unfortunately, quite limited, so I have no real frame of reference for what you're going through. Empathetic I am, though! ;-)

It is amazing how much differently we each precieve sound. I thought these were the one of the best speakers I heard and can't stand the sound of the Altec Duplex. Funny.

There really is no right or wrong in this hobby....well except for distortion.

GordonW said:

Man, I need to beg, borrow or steal the Churchill Wideband crossover schematic from somebody at Tannoy. With that crossover, the supertweeter, and the appropriate cabinet dimensions... :drool:

To date, the Churchill Wideband is in the top-5 speakers I've ever heard, at any price, from any manufacturer. Only the newer Tannoy Kingdom Royale beats it significantly (and it's TWICE the price)...

Regards,
Gordon.

Click to expand...

Now we’re talking! Something along the lines of the Churchills - similar cabinet size, super-tweeter and an optimized crossover is exactly where I’d like to take the 3836s.

If you could find crossover and super-tweeter details on those I would sure be grateful!

mhardy6647 said:

Refresh my memory - what are you using for crossovers with your Duplexes? I get that spooky immediacy with the 604Es and the MasteringLabs XOs, too... but I do think that some of it is "just" the good ol' Altec midrange hump. Sure is satisfying, though.

Click to expand...

I’m using a Markwart crossover now Mark, still as I threw it together years ago and detailed here. It could get better - a proper enclosure, better resistors, maybe even lose the level pot - but it works decent enough as-is.

I have to the original Altec crossovers these drivers sold with and that combination most definitely does have a pronounced midrange hump - at least to my ears. I bet the Markwart/604-8G combination still has some of this but a quick A/B switch with the originals shows the Markwarts to have smoother, less in-your-face mids and better top-end extension; the horn compensation EQ certainly does seem to work here.

The Tannoys are supposed to be more accurate through the mids than 604s and I might be lost in a sweetly colored place that is not right but there is something going on with these crossovers, WE 300Bs and Altec alnico drivers that connects me to the music in a way where I don’t care what is technically better.

Hiding behind rose colored glasses? Probably, but I do like what I hear back here.

Dang, that must be some awesome string quartet you gather whenever you play one...

djnagle said:

It is amazing how much differently we each precieve sound. I thought these were the one of the best speakers I heard and can't stand the sound of the Altec Duplex. Funny.

There really is no right or wrong in this hobby....well except for distortion.

Click to expand...

Yes, different strokes for different folks dj and I completely understand how you could hate 604s - I’ve heard them a few times where I didn’t care for them either and like I said, I built a system and room around getting the most out of them - haven’t done that yet with the Tannoys.

I do like the Tannoys and know they have all kinds of potential as I’ve loved what I’ve heard from them in the past, it just looks like it’s going to involve more than simply hooking them up in my existing system to get there.

604s have a reputation for being shouty to the point of being harsh - mine certainly are not that (at least, relative to my taste). Indeed, a New York State hifi guy, who shall remain nameless, commented that they were "very smooth" - and he is a Tannoy user. Cannot really extrapolate much from there.

In all fairness, I've only heard the 604s at audio fests. Maybe I should give them a listen in a good room before a make a judgement.

MRH, Shouty is what I heard.

Billfort said:

Now we’re talking! Something along the lines of the Churchills - similar cabinet size, super-tweeter and an optimized crossover is exactly where I’d like to take the 3836s.

If you could find crossover and super-tweeter details on those I would sure be grateful!

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that will most likely be a pipe-dream. They won't even give out schematics for those, to people who own Churchills!

Maybe some time in the future... :scratch2:

Regards,
Gordon.