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Help! I've been bitten by the idler drive bug!!!

Brett a

Brett a

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So, I bought a Dual 1215s from Jim at the recent AK Frankfest. I've cleaned, lubed, and adjusted it up and it's working quite nicely. (Thanks, Jim!)

It's not the first idler wheel 'table I've owned, but it's the first to have the "slam" that I've heard people talk about. (The other two are a Garrard AT6 MKII and a Dual 1212)

The leading edge, or "attack" of sounds such as the drum kit and piano are clear and sharp. And not just that, there's something about this drive system promises clearer timbres.

And i think it has to be the drive system, because the cart/stylus that's on it sounds fairly heavily veiled with a strange frequency curve. (I don't really know how to put it--it's like it has mid-range bloat and compression at the same time. Vocals are strangely receded while peripheral instruments such as guitars are highlighted. And everything is pretty much clumped in the middle of the soundstage--and no, it's not out-of-phase) It's a Shure M91ED with a stylus intended for a 93 I think(?) I have the correct stylus on the way from Ed Saunders. I expect this will make things a bit better.

But this idler drive system! wow!! I want a better one now. If i could get the quietness and transparency of my Well Tempered with the solid transmission of an idler, I'd be happy as sh*t!

But I can't afford $1,200+ for a Thorens 124 or Garrard 301.

Is there any way to approach the performance of these highly valued machined w/o spending four figures?

Maybe all I need to do is relax and enjoy what i have....

:scratch2:
 
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Lenco's are still fairly reasonably priced and sound great after rebuilding and placed in a massive plinth.
 
Brett a said:
And i think it has to be the drive system, because the cart/stylus that's on it sounds fairly heavily veiled with a strange frequency curve. (I don't really know how to put it--it's like it has mid-range bloat and compression at the same time. Vocals are strangely receded while peripheral instruments such as guitars are highlighted. And everything is pretty much clumped in the middle of the soundstage--and no, it's not out-of-phase)
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I had a similar experience with my 1019 until I cleaned the contacts on the headshell carrier. The bloat is completely gone now.
 
I highly recommend the Elac Miracord 50H. A very underrated performer. Cranking mine right now.
 
I have a Realistic/Miracord/ELAC 45 in the garage awaiting attention, it seems like a very nice table.

If you really, really want the idler bug, check out the big Rek-O-Kut idler drives. My B12H has a motor the size of a coffee can. :drool:
 
beatcomber said:
I had a similar experience with my 1019 until I cleaned the contacts on the headshell carrier. The bloat is completely gone now.
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Yeh, I did that. I cleaned all the contacts in the signal path. I really think (hope) it's the stylus/cantilever.
 
Sam Cogley said:
If you really, really want the idler bug, check out the big Rek-O-Kut idler drives. My B12H has a motor the size of a coffee can. :drool:
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Lol, yeah that big old Ashland motor is a monster ! I have a 124, 301, and the B12H. IMO constuction quality of the 124 and 301 is much higher than the B12H. OTOH, the B12H is no slouch and can certainly be had for much less $$.

I've always been curious about those monster Russco tables !
 
The Lenco suggestion is a very good one, but 60hz Lencos are harder to find and cost more here in the US than elsewhere. Be prepared to pay more for them than for a ROK, say.

Lenco, ROK, Garrard, Russco, QRK, Neat, Commonwealth, Metzner, Bogen, McCurdy... you've officially got options! :)
 
If you really, really want the idler bug, check out the big Rek-O-Kut idler drives. My B12H has a motor the size of a coffee can. :drool:[/QUOTE]

Agreed! My Lafayette PK-245 manufactured by Teac, has a Japanese cloned Ashland Hysteresis type motor, that has enough effective torque to pull tree stumps. It delivers incredible PRAT!

REK-O-KUTS can still be had for far less then 124s and 301s......but their prices have seemed to also risen in the last few years. Mount a B12H in a heavy plinth with a decent tonearm and you'll be rewarded with a very musical experience!
 
Ohighway said:
Lol, yeah that big old Ashland motor is a monster ! I have a 124, 301, and the B12H. IMO constuction quality of the 124 and 301 is much higher than the B12H. OTOH, the B12H is no slouch and can certainly be had for much less $$.

I've always been curious about those monster Russco tables !
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Of course, one can always get up into broadcast-grade equipment (Garrard 301/401, McCurdy, Gates, etc.), but that would just be crazy! Of course, that's said while posting pics of my SP-10 Mk.II... ;)
 
Sam Cogley said:
Of course, one can always get up into broadcast-grade equipment (Garrard 301/401, McCurdy, Gates, etc.), but that would just be crazy! Of course, that's said while posting pics of my SP-10 Mk.II... ;)
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Yeh, I'm watching a few broadcast tables in the 'Bay right now.
 
FYI Lencos were often sold as Bogens here. I have a B-61 and B-62. Basically a Lenco L-70. Every Dual i've heard had the sound you describe, including lumping everything in the middle (not that a Stock Lenco is all that fantastic...they NEED a big plinth, at least so I hear. As stock, they're not all that great except for the attack/leading edge info, which is pretty slick). But a Rek-o-kut? Mmmmmm.
 
I am listening to a dual 1229 with 91ed cart with original stylus and to my ears does not exhibit ANY bloat or "lumping" everything to the center. Nice separation and soundstage. I'd say there is an issue with your model, the cart or stylus.

Have you considered another dual higher on the food chain?
 
bobbyonions said:
I am listening to a dual 1229 with 91ed cart with original stylus and to my ears does not exhibit ANY bloat or "lumping" everything to the center. Nice separation and soundstage. I'd say there is an issue with your model, the cart or stylus.

Have you considered another dual higher on the food chain?
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I'm going to play the role of the TT snob here. He's used to listening to a Well Tempered Record Player. The one time I've heard one, I felt it offered just about the best soundstage presentation I've heard out of a turntable. That same idler wheel/motor in the Dual that leads to that snappy quick sound is also inducing vibration into the system, and that vibration can lump everything together into a nice pile of gooey snappy goodness, in a constricted soundstage. It's part of the trade off, and why people build gigantic plinths to tame it. There's a lot of things in this hobby that you don't hear, until you've heard them done better. Then you can't stop hearing them (and your wallet opens up, or your time fades away into DIY projects...).
 
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