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IGD test: Listen and see if you can tell the inner grooves from the outer grooves.

Brett a

Brett a

~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Hi all.

I often think it's a shame when I see people say that you have to live with audible inner groove distortion. Or maybe I don't understand their level of sensitivity to it. I don't seem to hear it except on the occasional worn record (which I then get rid of).

So, to try to better gauge people's sensitivities and perhaps challenge the nay-sayers, I've put together three sample tracks, each about 2 minutes long; with half being from the song on the outside grooves and half from the inner grooves. (Not necessarily in that order.)

About these tracks:
  • Each sample consists of two different songs from the same side of the same LP. And they are not compilation LPs, but come from the same original titles, so I assume the same recording process and people.

  • They switch about in the middle of the track without a break.

  • Other than cutting and pasting in Audacity, there is no processing; no click removal, fading, EQing--nothing--just raw captures.

  • They are all WAVs and should stream directly from the links provided.

  • I picked 3 LPs that would likely be unfamiliar to most people, so you couldn't go by track listing. For the same reason, I'm not telling you who/what they are. (Although I'm sure some of you will know one or two of them)

  • Each encompasses the "two minutes from the edge" section of the side. (either two minutes in from the beginning of the side, or two minutes away from the end of the side)

  • They are not all in the same order as far as being inner then outer, or outer, then inner; two samples are arranged in one configuration, and one the other way around.

Here they are:
Let's call them 1, 2, and 3:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16387095/IGD_SH.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16387095/IGD_SK.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16387095/IGD_ST.wav


You tell me if I'm living with inner groove distortion. Because I don't think I am.

Have fun and report back.


Go to post 32 for the answers.


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Is sample 2 Manhattan Transfer? Jean Luc Ponty on the 3rd sample? I could not hear any distortion on either.
 
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The well-tempered alignment does not have higher distortion on the inner grooves, so... there you go? Or are you using a different table?
 
I use LTs with known good stylii properly set up as the standard. If I don't hear it thru that it's not on the disc.
I've got only one pivot-arm TT in the line-up, a Sony PS-X70 with a factory-fresh Denon DL-110 in a composite headshell, and it's not getting much use these days.
 
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Hi Brett_a
I have no idea what records, but #1 starts with inner groove, some distortion on the S-sounds. #2 ends with inner groove, the same s-sound as nr #1.
#3 starts with inner groove, not that type of music that easily distort.
gusten
 
Some of what is being attested to IGD is hardening of the stylist tube mount synthetic. Some of the NOS stylist are 20,40 years old. Misalingment of the cartridge, improperly ballanced table, arm height, ballanced arm, over hang, tracking weight, skating adj., ar a short stright tonearm. Play with these toys long enough and you can find even more reasons for head scratching.
 
gusten said:
Hi Brett_a
I have no idea what records, but #1 starts with inner groove, some distortion on the S-sounds. #2 ends with inner groove, the same s-sound as nr #1.
#3 starts with inner groove, not that type of music that easily distort.
gusten
Click to expand...
You're 1 for 3.

Would you like me to PM you the actuals?


dumptruck said:
The well-tempered alignment does not have higher distortion on the inner grooves, so... there you go? Or are you using a different table?
Click to expand...

Yes, these tracks were taken with an Audio Technica OC9MLII low putput moving coil on a Well Tempered Record Player, but I wasn't aware that the Well Tempered has a special way of eliminating IGD. :scratch2: It's not any better or worse than it was on my Rega/RB250/AT150MLx FWIW.
 
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Very nice! I have to admit that your system's inner groove performance is fantastic. You may be on the verge of changing my mind about the inevitability of IGD...

I am currently at work, and therefore I am only able to briefly hear your samples through cheap Koss headphones. I will be able to tell more through my system when I get home. Even through the cheap headphones, I am hearing portions of certain recordings that I might label as ever so slightly inferior, though I would easily consider the level of performance on any of these samples to be acceptable.

Who says money can't buy happiness? :drool:
 
Brett a said:
I wasn't aware that the Well Tempered has a special way of eliminating IGD.
Click to expand...
It doesn't; every one of the zillion Japanese tables with Stevenson alignment has minimum distortion at the innermost groove. If you look at that old thread, nobody seems sure about the well tempered alignment(s), but they do seem to favor the inner grooves one way or another.

Anyway, my experience has been that any decent TT and cart, properly set up, will not have significant problems with this except on pressings that are really pushing the limits, but there is no getting around how common inner groove damage is with used vinyl.

Also, it's important to be aware of how things actually work out on your setup, or what you're hearing will often seem like it doesn't make any sense with what people are talking about online. For example, look at this alignment comparison for an SL-1200 mk5. Many LPs will only have music between about 80mm and 140mm. The standard line "stevenson for best inner groove but sacrificing outer grooves" doesn't make much sense there. Take a 33rpm 7" with grooves all the way to the very-hard-to-track 55mm, and the comparison is completely different.

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No guesses on my part........i don't really hear any tracking issues. I think you need to PM me those album names/artists. And I think yu need to redo this test with my Sonata-1 attached to that arm.........or send me the arm so I can test it:yes:
 
G'day all, I really don't want to oversimplify the whole subject but there are no great mysteries here. I have consistently used Baerwald overhang parameters and in the end it all comes down to how well (and carefully) one sets up their overhang/ alignment. As I've said in my page on this subject, it is so easy to get it wrong even when one thinks one has it right! As with so many things in life, the devil is in the detail, not the concept!

The paradox is that although vinyl records are frequently seen by non vinyl people as quaint and possibly antiquated, the fact is that the general tonearm/ cartridge set up simply 'has' to be correct for the best possible playback quality, and it is precise and fiddly! When it 'is' done correctly, IGD becomes a non-issue, in my opinion. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
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dumptruck said:
It doesn't; every one of the zillion Japanese tables with Stevenson alignment has minimum distortion at the innermost groove. If you look at that old thread, nobody seems sure about the well tempered alignment(s), but they do seem to favor the inner grooves one way or another.

Anyway, my experience has been that any decent TT and cart, properly set up, will not have significant problems with this except on pressings that are really pushing the limits, but there is no getting around how common inner groove damage is with used vinyl.

Also, it's important to be aware of how things actually work out on your setup, or what you're hearing will often seem like it doesn't make any sense with what people are talking about online. For example, look at this alignment comparison for an SL-1200 mk5. Many LPs will only have music between about 80mm and 140mm. The standard line "stevenson for best inner groove but sacrificing outer grooves" doesn't make much sense there. Take a 33rpm 7" with grooves all the way to the very-hard-to-track 55mm, and the comparison is completely different.
Click to expand...

80mm is very rare, the standard is 60mm. How can You be sure that these alignments handle IGD differently? Is one better than another, and in that case which is best?
gusten
 
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gusten said:
80mm is very rare, the standard is 60mm. How can You be sure that these alignments handle IGD differently? Is one better than another, and in that case which is best?
gusten
Click to expand...
It's not very rare. My collection seems to average around 70mm for 12" LPs, and I must have 100+ that are 80mm or greater. I don't understand the rest of your question. I posted the graph, right? I'm not making any argument for one being better than the other. I would love to have one headshell with Loefgren B and one with Stevenson to use for different records, but my arm can't do that.
 
What about when they try to cram too much on two record sides?
Pearl Jam records are very suspect in this department and sound like crap when you get to the inner songs.
 
dumptruck said:
It's not very rare. My collection seems to average around 70mm for 12" LPs, and I must have 100+ that are 80mm or greater. I don't understand the rest of your question. I posted the graph, right? I'm not making any argument for one being better than the other. I would love to have one headshell with Loefgren B and one with Stevenson to use for different records, but my arm can't do that.
Click to expand...

What I meant was, these different alignments are focusing on slightly different null points. Meaning at this inner null point the tracking error is zero, but this does not mean the IGD also is zero. It doesn´t even mean that IGD is less at the inner null point at 60mm than on the same 60mm but with a nullpoint at 70mm, I think.
gusten
 
gusten: I was talking purely about the IGD from tracking error caused by alignment, i.e. the IGD that would be completely avoided by a good linear tracker. Past that, we're just talking overall tracking ability of the setup. Nothing to really say about that - better tracking is better, and reasonable mastering decisions can reduce the need for exceptional tracking.
 
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