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When Is A 'Teflon' Cap NOT a Teflon Cap?. . .When It's A Psvane!

FalconEddy

FalconEddy

Audio Mastering Engineer
Well folks, sorry to drop the bomb if you didn't know, but curiousity got the best of me earlier this evening, and I just couldn't let it go without a full investigation.

An AK forum member PM'd me about how happy he was that he was able to acquire a quad of Psvane Teflon caps today at one of the online vendors that carries them, at a 'seriously' reduced price. So I thought I should take a look and see what was up, since this just didn't click as being right for some reason.

I was just there a while ago and didn't see any sale prices. As soon as I got in and went to Film Capacitors, Psvane was GONE, history, outta there, missing, ghost town. I went through a browser to link to it only to immediately get a error that it didn't exist on that site.

Well, this is really interesting, in a spy movie 'bad' kind of way. So I searched around the internet for articles about Psvane Teflon capacitors and eventually got a hit after a while. It turns out that Jallen from V-Cap grabbed a few of these Psvane puppies, pulled them apart in the lab, and had them analyzed.

These capacitors only use teflon for the shield on the leads. The actual dielectric insulation film is super high-grade Dupont Polyester (BoPET). Grant Fidelity released a statement on January 31, 2012 attempting to playdown this entire event and state that is was due to the interpretation of the Chinese language. Yet they will continue to sell them at the same price because it's how they sound that matters, and not the plastic sheets between the conductors.

You can read all about it right here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1327073472&openflup&30&4#30

Absolutely Inconceivable!

* * * IN FAIRNESS. . . THIS HAS BEEN EDITED BELOW FOR MY DEALINGS WITH GRANT FIDELITY AS WELL AS THE ISSUE AT HAND * * *

I hope putting in a link to another forum here is ok, I believe that fake products or deceiving audiophiles/vintage restorers, blatently lying to them, and overcharging them for even high grade polyester film capacitors is a pretty important issue, and a terrible crime on the part of both China and their distributors here in the US. Are they both claiming to be as clean as a preacher's sheets in this matter because this was truely a translational language issue? Grant Fidelity has always been an honest straight forward company with me, so I would really like to believe that this actually was a Chinese>English language issue simply due to the Teflon shielded leads; because I'm pretty damn sick of being treated by others like I'm an idiot, and having them think I will just swallow any Bull$hit cover story someone conveniently pulls out of their a$$.

. . Falcon
 
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doesn't sound all that bad to me-a language mistake is possible. i'd be more concerned about counterfeit parts getting into the pipeline. the bit about teflon and HF is something to know as HF is insidious and potent in its actions on organic tissues.
 
This is a major scandal. How interesting. Chris V of V-cap is probably doing a victory dance right now.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention Falcon. How else are we to know?
 
When I buy something, I expect it to be exactly what it has been promoted as, otherwise I'm not interested in the product.

Nice to know the truth about various products, a informed purchase is a good one, thanks Falcon.
 
Well, Falcon was nice enough not to quote me by name, though I'm the sucker that bought the caps last month. Or perhaps I'm not a sucker. Perhaps I'll turn out to be the guy that got an awesome deal. They may not be as teflon as they come, but they may be great anyway. Only time and relative perception will tell.

I've read through the available information, had a meal, and dwelled on this situation a bit and have decided the following:
1. I'm going to evaluate the Psvane caps on their own merit as opposed to "good as, not as good as, or better than".
2. I'm reminded once again something I know but went against my instincts about: Being an early adopter involves expense and risk. In this case I kind of stumbled in blind. I don't feel taken though. A thorough education is not free and I don't believe that an online education is the be-all and end-all of educational opportunities.
3. I'll maintain an open mind on this subject and these caps.
4. I won't be letting my thinking fall into any stereotypical thought patterns that are so easy to ramble on about but have huge logical flaws and are impossible to back up with facts.

I was planning on shelving these until I have a project worthy of boutique caps.
I don't know what amp I'm going to put them in yet, and I'll give them some time to settle in when I do.

Of course I get this information just when I'm going away and I won't be able to do anything right now anyway.
I still expect these caps to be very good.
audiodon
 
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Just a cautionary note, for those not involved no piling on needed with no real info.
 
Well, gentlemen, as you all clearly understand, this could get touchy. However, make no mistake, we expect all approved vendors to be ethical and do the right things by their customers.

It's entirely possible that Grant's description was the result of an incorrect translation or interpretation of something in a foreign language. Given that possibility, what's important here is the response going forward. If they clearly acknowledge what happened, take care of their customers, adjust their web site with the appropriate statements, and then go forward appropriately, the situation will be resolved in a satisfactory manner.

So, I think the most prudent course of action at this point is to wait and see how the situation is addressed.

In the meantime, a calm and thoughtful discussion is the only kind we should be having. :yes:
 
So now I can also be the hero to bring the good news. . .

Here's the news scoop from the Grant Fidelity site on Psvane Capacitors:

High end Beryllium Copper foil audio capacitors from Psvane Audio

Re-seller's Note: there are some ongoing threads on audio forums about whether Psvane caps are 'real of fake'. Such a discussion was trigged by previous inaccurate production information leading consumer to believe Psvane caps are like V-cap using Teflon dielectric film.

Since the questions were raised by online forum members, Grant Fidleity as re-seller have immediately contacted with manufacturer Psvane Audio and clarified the produc description. Our website has also been updated immediately with the latest information provided by the manufacturer.

In short, according to the factory, Psvane caps are made with "Beryllium Copper Foil, the highest grade Dupont Polyester film as dieletric, with Teflon shielded tin tipped leads". They are not a copy of V-Cap; so they are neither real or fake V-Cap. They are simply another creation of high fidelity audio capacitors for audiophiles pursuing better sound.

There are other vendors reselling Psvane caps that were sourced from unknown parties to Grant Fidelity. Grant Fidelity will guarantee that all our products are sourced directly from manufacturer without any broker involved and we do not re-sell to electronics parts vendors. The forum thread(s) reported Psvane cap failures and those failed caps have been confirmed NOT purchased from Grant Fidelity.

As our website contents could have been used in multiple places for advertising purpose or being quoted by online users. We do not warrant the accuracy of such content. All product information is maintained up-to-date at this website and we are committed to provide as accurate information as possible directly from the manufacturer.

The error in Psvane caps decription didn't change our evaluation on these great sounding caps. Grant Fidelity sell capacitors as electronics parts for its reliability, electronics application and final sonic performance. We do not sell Psvane capacitors solely based on which type of plastic sheet used in the product. We believe in fine audio products are creation of engineering and sonic arts. Manufacturer Psvane Audio has asked us to sincerely apologize for the previous misleading information and Grant Fidelity will continue carry these great sounding, well made Beryllium Copper foil capacitors.

Grant Fidelity are so confident in the sound quality of the Psvane Caps that our next factory run of flagship tube amp models will come with the Psvane caps pre-installed. All our tube amps will have optional upgrade with these Psvane caps as well.

To further demonstrate our confidence in the Psvane Beryllium Copper Foil caps, Grant Fidelity is pleased to offer 30 days return for all order placed from now until May 1st, 2012. If you don't like how these caps sound, simply write us for return instructiions and get your refund. Free airmail shipping is provided wordwide from Hong Kong to your door.

All Caps have 12 months warranty from your purchase date.

. . Falcon
 
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Fisherdude said:
Excellent! Can't ask for more than that.
Click to expand...

No, you can't. In fact, I believe this shows the commitment Grant Fidelity has to their supplier, and the belief they have in this Psvane copper foil high end capacitor product since it's already been independently tested. It's just not a teflon dielectric, so don't compare it to another teflon product in a 'taste test'. End of story.

Two thumbs WAY up for their resolution, write up, and offerings to their customers! :thmbsp: :thmbsp:

. . Falcon
 
FalconEddy said:
. In fact, I believe this shows the commitment Grant Fidelity has to their supplier, and the belief they have in this Psvane copper foil high end capacitor product since it's already been independently tested. It's just not a teflon dielectric, so don't compare it to another teflon product in a 'taste test'.

Two thumbs WAY up for their resolution, write up, and offerings to their customers! :thmbsp: :thmbsp:

. . Falcon
Click to expand...

Interesting. I checked the Grant Fidelity site after reading your original post and did not see what the issue was as the site explained it just fine. I'm glad you came in to post that information.

As to the taste test, isn't the goal to get the caps that sound best to the listener in which case it does not matter what the materials of construction, but the results of the 'taste test'. If you are talking about cost, it does not matter in the least you buy what you can afford or like. So it seems the statement that I put in bold is just a spurious comment any decent tuner would cover up.
 
Hiya,

Glad to see the truth come out in the end with what I consider a positive ending. The old saying that there is always two sides (Or More) to any story applies.

Frannie
 
Blue Shadow said:
Interesting. I checked the Grant Fidelity site after reading your original post and did not see what the issue was as the site explained it just fine. I'm glad you came in to post that information.

As to the taste test, isn't the goal to get the caps that sound best to the listener in which case it does not matter what the materials of construction, but the results of the 'taste test'. If you are talking about cost, it does not matter in the least you buy what you can afford or like. So it seems the statement that I put in bold is just a spurious comment any decent tuner would cover up.
Click to expand...

Well, I can certainly understand why another intellectual would write such a comment without having all the information, since I myself did such a thing very early this morning; then recovered later today when I found more information on the Grant Fidelity site. In regards to the 'taste test' comment, that information was specifically focused at individuals that may visit this forum who have had the opportunity to test, or will test, a variety of manufacturer teflon dielectric capacitors in electronic and/or driver applications; (as well as audiodon that was SO looking forward to hearing what the teflon sound was like in a vintage amp). So, therefore at this point has been revealed to obviously not be intentionally spurious.

As a side note, as a professional Audio Mastering Engineer, I can assure you that I am quite familiar with things that sound best to the listener. :music: :yes: :thmbsp:

. . Falcon
 
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PakProtector said:
So is there even any Be in them?

When the K72 Russian stuff first came out the price definately raised some questions. Then somebody took one apart, and put some fire to the dielectric. Just as TFE is supposed to, it went transperant...Teflon dielectric confirmed.

If I felt like doing a fund raiser, I'd be willing to bet heavily that there is no Be in the copper plates either.
cheers,
Douglas
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would think there would be since the copper is quite a different color than others using copper in their caps and it say so on their site. HOWEVER, THAT'S PURELY SPECULATION.

With that said, they also stated online in other places (not their site) that Psvane Audio uses the highest quality Dupont BoPET polyester (biaxially-oriented polyethylene terephthalate). You know, tradenames like Mylar, along with beryllium copper foil to produce these high end capacitors.

. . Falcon
 
drtechno said:
Parts is parts, thats all, but this is what I think about people raging about a parts, reviewing it, but not counting for the whole of the circuit design:

You claim that an
(x) audible...



...
(X) not using any capacitors in your design
(X) developing proper construction teniques
Click to expand...


:lurk:
 
I'm wondering what the hell drtechno's post/opinion has to do with the topic :scratch2: :boring:

Anyway, on topic...

Looks like GF are doing all that is possible to rectify things on their site for their part, so good on them for that :thmbsp:
 
Hiya,

Are there more horses asses in the world than horses.
(x) Yes
( ) Need to do a study
( ) Post a poll at Audio Karma
(x) No
(x) Lock this thread please

Frannie
 
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