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Shibata on an M91ED? Why not!

wualta

permanently nonplussed cat
Subscriber
Shibata on an M91ED? Why not!

No, I'm not talking about an expensive replacement with a special diamond, and I'm not about to tell you reasons why you shouldn't put a Shibata on an M91-- just the opposite. I'm talking about doing it wrong, and cheap, but fun.

In other words, hey, why not put cheap Shibatas on cartridges made years before such a thing existed.

"Cheap Shibatas"? you say. Isn't that a contradiction in terms right there? Happily, no. Not at the moment, anyway.

If you lay side by side the styli from this rather obscure (in the US, at least) old moving-magnet Japanese CD-4 cart, the Excel ES-70EX4...
es70ex4-a.jpg

... (also known as the Sanyo MG-40X) and the one from the Shure M91E or ED, you'll notice they look kind of alike. The more you look at them, the more it looks as if you could swap them and get away with it.
Excel Shibata stylus on Shure M991ED body E.jpg

Turns out you can. At least the Excel stylus will fit the Shure, and it tracks at 1.5g. You'll see it doesn't go all the way in, but that hardly matters; there's plenty of output. If you can, you'll probably want to run the Shure body with its tail in the air a little. The two styli were "aimed" differently.

I doubt this combo's ability to play CD-4 LPs through a demodulator, but in stereo the sound is very nice indeed. I suspect the tippy-top end is smoothly rolled off, but who cares-- this is for fun.

There's a catch-- I'm pretty certain the styli I've been using are not original Excel/Sanyo. They're the right color (deep clear red) and there's a line-contact diamond [see post #100] but the genuine cantilever is tapered and straight. I don't have an original; I only know this stylus works. If you do happen to own an original EX4 stylus, let us know if it sounds wrong or unbalanced in the Shure (or any other "wrong" body).

A few well-known online vendors stock this stylus. If you examine the vendor's photographs (if any) you'll see they usually look like mine, with a distinctive "cranked" style cantilever. Prices vary ($46 from a particularly well-known vendor, but I've seen it for much less).

If you try this trick with an M91ED or an M92E p-mount (the M95's mount interferes) or even an old M97, report back with your results. Even if you find it doesn't live up to expectations, you can always snag a used ES-70 body from eBay and enjoy it the way it was meant. The Garrott brothers didn't use this cartridge body for nothing.
garrott bros P77-E.jpg
 
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Very interesting. I've also seen people used the Excel stylus on the gold Empire bodies too.
 
Which would be weird, since the operating principle of the most-common Empire gold metal bodies--at least the ones made in the USA-- is moving-iron, not moving-magnet. Now, the oldest Empires, like the 88P, 880P and 108, are moving-magnet. But you will get sound putting a moving-magnet stylus in a moving-iron body.
 
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Which would be weird, since the operating principle of the most-common Empire gold metal bodies is moving-iron, not moving-magnet. Now the old Empires, like the 88p and I think the 108, are moving-magnet.

I thought the Empire 2000 etc. were moving magnets? Granted, I've only seen them the mis-match together, I have yet to hear them. But, I have a few Shure bodies and Excel stylus lying around, I might be tempted to give it a shot.
 
Kico said:
Great photos:thmbsp:--what make and model of camera?
Thank you, but the only one that's mine is the one in the middle-- Panasonic ZS3. It looks lousy because I had to bring up the shadows so you could see the cart body. The others are swiped from a Google image search.

hoodie said:
Would an N24H stylus be a viable candidate?
Interesting you should bring that one up. Fascinating cartridge. Externally an M95 body but with the same laminated magnetic structure as the V15 III's, and the smallest coils in any Shure, 160mH. Only one Shure stylus works properly in it, and it uses the V15 III's small shank. So you could try it, but the fit would be loose, and a stylus voiced for 160mH in a 400mH body might sound very mellow indeed.

mythless said:
I thought the Empire 2000 etc. were moving magnets?
Nope, the magnets are all fixed inside the body. See any ad for that series that featured an exploded diagram. But Empire did start out using moving-magnet. Once they switched (1965), they stayed with moving-iron until their new owners started importing Azden moving-magnet carts with the Empire name on them (eg, 195LT, 350E). EDIT: This is true of the US market. In Europe, Ortofons and Gott knows what all were rebranded as Empires.

Now, can you put a moving-magnet stylus in a moving-iron body and get sound? Yes you can. It may or may not be the same signal strength or frequency response, but you will get sound.
 
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Sorry guys, it's the small shank style. We are talking about the M24H stylus, right? I have one right here. Same size as this V15VMR stylus shank. Fits in an M95, just a little loose. Doesn't mean you can't use it.
 
Sorry guys, it's the small shank style. We are talking about the M24H stylus, right? I have one right here. Same size as this V15VMR stylus shank. Fits in an M95, just a little loose. Doesn't mean you can't use it.

When you're right you're right. :ntwrthy: It is a small shank. So would it be a good match with any V15xx body?
 
This looks like a fun experiment. I just went on eBay to see whether there might be a lonely Excel body available. There isn't but there's a seller with 7 NOS/NIB styli available at a price slightly better than the price TTN has for "Recoton" styli (which are probable originals too).

Meanwhile, JICO makes one too but at more than twice the price.

(BTW, does anyone else hate the new eBay page format?)

John
 
This looks like a fun experiment. I just went on eBay to see whether there might be a lonely Excel body available. There isn't but there's a seller with 7 NOS/NIB styli available at a price slightly better than the price TTN has for "Recoton" styli (which are probable originals too).

Meanwhile, JICO makes one too but at more than twice the price.

(BTW, does anyone else hate the new eBay page format?)

John

Yes John i hate most of the newer things on ebay. Just when i get used to things and get things the way i like it they change it ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
Looks legit, though he spelled "Excel" wrong-- most vendors do, as it turns out. That's the Sanyo version, so maybe it doesn't have to be red [but see post 51 !]. By the way, here's the generic diasa (!) version compared to the real thing:
diasa closeup-a.jpg 58a.jpg

As for the N24H stylus, its closest electrical relative is the V15V, which has only twice the inductance instead of ~four times the inductance. But try it and see. Load it at 100k to get the upper treble back up.

The most common ES-70 is the ES-70S, with a conical 0.6 mil stylus. Our Canadian friends are selling a NOS ES-70F with a 0.5 mil conical, but it's not exactly cheap. Try the Sanyo model numbers: MG-25, MG-27, MG-40.
.
 
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Interesting. Carolesneedles sells the EVG stylus too, describing it as a JICO. I wonder about that because the JICO website shows the stylus as having an opaque red grip, not the translucent black of the EVG or the translucent red of the NOS/Recoton.

To confuse matters even further, the photos used by the 4 different vendors show cantilevers that all appear to be different. :dunno:

John
 
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You guys are doing very strange and weird things. I just hope the earth keeps rotating about its axis.

:D

Doug
 
I have a M92E without a stylus...I may have to try this out for shits & giggles...

-D
 
Here's where I've been getting mine. He probably has less than a handful left, if that, but for his current price of $18 + $4 shipping, you can't beat www.thevoiceofmusic.com on the "614-DQ" Might as well clean him out. Be gentle.

John, I'll have to look (= squint) at some of the other vendors' photos. I would expect a JICO to be different, but you've seen four different styles of canti? Egad.
 
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